księżyc - Gaelainn

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księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2010-03-21, 12:50

As I'm sure it'll be inevitable that I have questions as I work my way through my Irish textbooks, I figured I'd start a single thread (as opposed to starting a bunch of threads) to ask my questions.

For starters I notice that in lesson 2 of 'Learning Irish' there are three words that are introduced that mean 'there' (ann, ansin, ansiúd).
Now 'ansin' and 'ansiúd' are explained, but it seems like an explanation for 'ann' is missing (though the text says 'see this lesson').

If I understand the difference from 'ansin' and 'ansiúd' correctly, 'ansin' is used if something is nearby and being referenced. 'Ansiúd' is used is the thing is not within sight, or hasn't been referenced before. Does that mean that 'ansiúd' is used if something is nearby, but hasn't been talked about yet? And where does 'ann' fit into the picture? Go raibh maith agat/agaibh!
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-01-31, 17:20, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Question(s)

Postby Quevenois » 2010-03-21, 13:19

Hi

Anseo = here
Ansin = there
Ansiud = over there, yonder

Ann = there, mostly in the meaning "present". Literally "ann" means "in it".
אַ שפראַך איז אַ דיאַלעקט מיט אַן אַרמײ און פֿלאָט

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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-03-21, 13:42

Quevenois wrote:Hi

Anseo = here
Ansin = there
Ansiud = over there, yonder

Ann = there, mostly in the meaning "present". Literally "ann" means "in it".

I was wondering about 'ann,' thanks for clearing that up for me.

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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-04-19, 23:25

Ok, here's another question for you guys!
I though I was under the understanding that Irish verbs don't conjugate for person, just for tense. That is how they are represented in 'Learning Irish.'
But then I was reading Colloquial Irish (which covers the same dialect as 'LI') and they conjugate verbs so that the 1st person singular and plural forms are conjugated for both form and person.
For example:
'LI' Form'CI' Formtrans.
casann mécasaimI play music/sing
téann muidtéaimidWe go

I think I've even seen the form táim (I am) before.
Thus I'm curious how often the two forms are used. Is one used in different settings then the other or are they pretty much interchangeable? Does it sound 'old fashioned' to say, for example, casann mé?

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Re: Question(s)

Postby Quevenois » 2010-04-20, 1:03

The forms in the present tense 1sg are used in almost all dialects :
casaim or casam will be used everywhere (but sometimes in some Ulster dialects people may say "casann mé" as well).

in the 1pl, the synthetic forms aren't universal, they are mainly used in Munster, and sometimes in the other dialects :
casaimíd in Munster
sometimes casamaid, casaimid in Ulster (maybe in Connacht too), but as far as I know, most people would say "casann muid" in Connacht and Ulster.

"We go" is "téimid" in Standard Irish (although I'm afraid it isn't used in the Gaeltacht).
אַ שפראַך איז אַ דיאַלעקט מיט אַן אַרמײ און פֿלאָט

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Re: Question(s)

Postby linguoboy » 2010-04-20, 3:49

księżycowy wrote:I thought I was under the understanding that Irish verbs don't conjugate for person, just for tense. That is how they are represented in 'Learning Irish.'

How far have you read? Ó Siadhail introduces synthetic forms in Lesson 7 where he gives the full conjugation of atáim. He doesn't list them for present, simple past, or future but he does give them for habitual present, habitual past, and conditional.

Synthetic forms for other verbs are covered in Lesson 26 (simple past) and Lesson 36 (all other tenses). As Ó Siadhail points out in the latter lesson, in Cois Fhairrge these are rare outside of the contexts where they appear as "echo forms", e.g. "Glanfaidh tú an bord, an nglanfais?" "Glanfad."

In Modern Irish, he goes into more detail on their distribution across the dialects. In general, synthetic forms of all sorts are most in Munster and least common in Ulster, with dialects of Connacht falling somewhere in between. As a learner of Munster Irish, I find the analytic first-person plural forms very odd indeed.
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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-04-20, 12:34

linguoboy wrote:How far have you read? Ó Siadhail introduces synthetic forms in Lesson 7 where he gives the full conjugation of atáim. He doesn't list them for present, simple past, or future but he does give them for habitual present, habitual past, and conditional.

I'm not quite up to lesson 7, but getting there. Honestly I've been going through 'LI' somewhat slowly. As for Colloquial Irish, I was just skimming, trying to get a feel for the text.

Anyways, thanks for the answers!

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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-09-29, 14:10

Ok, I've re-started my learning of Irish after a little 'break' shall we say . . .
I'm on lesson 3 in Learning Irish, where they go over lenition in proper nouns. The only question I have is this: the text seems to indicate in this lesson that 's' is only lenited in proper nouns if it is followed by a vowel or the letters l, n, r. Is this correct?

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Re: Question(s)

Postby linguoboy » 2010-09-29, 14:39

księżycowy wrote:Ok, I've re-started my learning of Irish after a little 'break' shall we say . . .
I'm on lesson 3 in Learning Irish, where they go over lenition in proper nouns. The only question I have is this: the text seems to indicate in this lesson that 's' is only lenited in proper nouns if it is followed by a vowel or the letters l, n, r. Is this correct?

Not just proper nouns but all nouns. (In some cases, this lenition manifests as a prefixed t rather than aspiration, but you don't need to worry about that quite yet.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2010-09-29, 19:06

I figured that it was for all nouns.
Thanks.

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Re: Question(s)

Postby linguoboy » 2010-09-29, 23:41

księżycowy wrote:I figured that it was for all nouns.

Oh, and as a footnote, some dialects (e.g. Dunquin) do allow aspiration of s before m. But this isn't found in the standard or in the dialect Ó Siadhail's book teaches.
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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2011-02-17, 16:02

Hey guys, I'm back at it once again!
I'm doing Irish for my TAC this time. Just figured I'd stop by and say 'Dia dhuit!' :wink:

Also I'm thinking of getting the following eventually when I get a bit deeper into Learning Irish, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it and if it's good or not:
Foirisiún Focal as Gaillimh by Tomás de Bhaldraithe

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Re: Question(s)

Postby linguoboy » 2011-02-17, 17:01

księżycowy wrote:Also I'm thinking of getting the following eventually when I get a bit deeper into Learning Irish, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it and if it's good or not:
Foirisiún Focal as Gaillimh by Tomás de Bhaldraithe

Tá sorry orm ach níl eolas agam uirthi. It does looks interesting, so if you do decide to buy it, I'll be eager to hear what you think of it.
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Re: Question(s)

Postby DelBoy » 2011-02-17, 21:53

księżycowy wrote:Hey guys, I'm back at it once again!
I'm doing Irish for my TAC this time. Just figured I'd stop by and say 'Dia dhuit!' :wink:

Also I'm thinking of getting the following eventually when I get a bit deeper into Learning Irish, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it and if it's good or not:
Foirisiún Focal as Gaillimh by Tomás de Bhaldraithe


Dia's Muire dhuitse agus fáilte ar ais!

I'm afraid I don't know it either, but as linguoboy says, it does sound interesting, so let us know what you think if you get it.



linguoboy wrote:Tá sorry orm


eh? :lol:
The British Isles are awesome - I know, I live there - but Ireland is not a part of them. K thnx bai!

Labharfainn níos mó faoi, dá dtuigfinn an bhrí...

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Re: Question(s)

Postby księżycowy » 2011-02-17, 23:00

Ok. Well, chances are pretty good I'll get it within the next few weeks, so I'll let you guys know!

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Re: Question(s)

Postby Prosper_Youplaboum » 2011-02-17, 23:36

Hallo

It is a dictionary of Galway, actually a list of the specific words and expressions of that area.
http://www.ria.ie/Publications/Research ... llimh.aspx

But I don't know if they offer stuff from the whole Galway Gaeltacht... it's quite large, like. And the book isn't that big.
Agur Xibe’ua,
Bazter güzietako xokho’ik eijerrena,
Agur sor lekhia,
Zu’i ditit ene ametsik goxuenak.

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby księżycowy » 2011-04-28, 17:25

Ok, here are a few questions for you guys!

So I've been messing around with the grammar from Lessons 2&3 of LI, and I'm currious if the following is correct.
An bhfuil cóta Cháit? Níl cóta Cháit.
'Is that Cáit's coat? That is not Cáit's coat.' :?:

Also I'm still having some trouble with ann.
I was reading Basic Irish, and I think I understand some of it.
Ann would be used if you where trying to same something like English:
"Let's go there." (As in passing by a place and just deciding on the spot)
-or-
"Let's go to town." "What stores do they have there."
If I understand correctly ann would be in the Irish version of those sentences in place of there, right?

But then Basic Irish started going off about some other use(s) of ann, and it lost me. :para:

Go raibh maith agat/agaibh!

Oh, and I did get that glossary we were talking about a little while ago, and it looks really good. The only problem I have with it so far is that it's all in Irish (which is what I figured). But hopefully that won't be a problem for long! :wink:

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2011-04-28, 17:55

księżycowy wrote:An bhfuil cóta Cháit? Níl cóta Cháit.

What you've written is "Is Kate's coat? Isn't Kate's coat." Somehow, I don't think that's what you intended to say.


księżycowy wrote:Also I'm still having some trouble with ann.
I was reading Basic Irish, and I think I understand some of it.
Ann would be used if you where trying to same something like English:
"Let's go there." (As in passing by a place and just deciding on the spot)
-or-
"Let's go to town." "What stores do they have there."
If I understand correctly ann would be in the Irish version of those sentences in place of there, right?

Not quite. For one thing, Irish has both ann and ansin. The latter is what I would use when pointing out a particular place. Ann is used more vaguely, like the "there" in "there is". You simply can't say *"Cad iad na siopaí atá" without adding some sort of locative. (Which is how it is in English.)
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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby księżycowy » 2011-04-28, 18:17

linguoboy wrote:What you've written is "Is Kate's coat? Isn't Kate's coat." Somehow, I don't think that's what you intended to say.

Indeed not.
How would you say what I was trying to say?

Not quite. For one thing, Irish has both ann and ansin. The latter is what I would use when pointing out a particular place. Ann is used more vaguely, like the "there" in "there is".

So, "Let's go there" would use ansin in Irish, ok. That does make since as it's in sight.
And of course I understand that Irish has ann, ansin, and ansiúd.

You simply can't say *"Cad iad na siopaí atá" without adding some sort of locative. (Which is how it is in English.)

I do understand that. Isn't ann (or even ansin or ansiúd) used in this type of situation?

So far I understand ansiúd to mean there (as in a far or not present location; out of sight).
And ansin to mean there (as in a close location, within sight).
And if I understand you correctly, ann means there in the since that you don't know where the location is.

I believe that Basic Irish was also saying that ann can be used for a location that has already been referenced, what's that all about?

And of course I know I'm using English sentences as examples, which probably isn't the best approach.

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Re: księżycowy - Questions

Postby linguoboy » 2011-04-28, 19:43

księżycowy wrote:How would you say what I was trying to say?

For that you need the copula, which merits its own chapter in most grammars of Irish. Have you started learning it yet?

księżycowy wrote:
You simply can't say *"Cad iad na siopaí atá" without adding some sort of locative. (Which is how it is in English.)

I do understand that. Isn't ann (or even ansin or ansiúd) used in this type of situation?

Ann is used when you can't or don't want to be more specific. It's also used for pure existentials, e.g. "An bhfuil siopaí dá leithéid ann?" "Are there shops like that?"

księżycowy wrote:I believe that Basic Irish was also saying that ann can be used for a location that has already been referenced, what's that all about?

Again, this is not unlike English. E.g.: "Bhíos i gCúil Aodha inné." "Oh, an bhfuil siopaí ann?" You're not asking here if shops exist in general, you're asking if they exist in the specific place already mentioned.
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