księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-08, 21:12

linguoboy wrote:ná fuilim

Is canúint aisteach é go cinnte. Dependent form, but no mutation. Where is this going to end? ;)

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-08, 21:41

kevin wrote:
linguoboy wrote:ná fuilim

Is canúint aisteach é go cinnte. Dependent form, but no mutation. Where is this going to end? ;)

Yeah, Munster uses with verbs where the standard has nach + eclipsis, just as it uses go + eclipsis where CO has a + eclipsis.

an áit go bhfuilim "where I am"
an áit ná fuilim "where I am not"

The dependent negative/negative interrogative form of the copula is still nach, however.

\Nach é? "Isn't it?"
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-08, 22:22

I thought linguoboy would correct this, but doesn't look like it, so I will:
księżycowy wrote:Ach cuirfead aon ceann.

"ceann" is literally "head", but that's how you translate "one" in this context. "aon" is more like "any".

Also, in the other thread "An gcloiseann tú" with eclipsis.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-08, 22:29

For some reason I never saw this post.
księżycowy wrote:Le rún daingean?

Were you trying to ask, "On purpose?" That would be "D'aon ghnó?"

księżycowy wrote:*I'm not sure if that is the proper form. I couldn't exactly decode the chart for chím in the back of TYI. If it even has the information I need to figure it out.

It does. You need the 2S imperative. It's helpful to know that this is the most common citation form nowadays.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-08, 22:39

kevin wrote:I thought linguoboy would correct this, but doesn't look like it, so I will:
księżycowy wrote:Ach cuirfead aon ceann.

"ceann" is literally "head", but that's how you translate "one" in this context. "aon" is more like "any".

Go raibh maith agat!

Also, in the other thread "An gcloiseann tú" with eclipsis.

:headbang:

linguoboy wrote:Were you trying to ask, "On purpose?" That would be "D'aon ghnó?"

Do bhíos, go raibh maith agat.
It does. You need the 2S imperative. It's helpful to know that this is the most common citation form nowadays.

I literally just realized I was having a brain fart in reading the chart. The one side is the imperative, and the other one (with present and past) is the subjunctive. Dur.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-08, 22:54

So, in regard to the spelling of verbs like crúdhaim/crúim or léighim/léim I have a feeling that the <dh> and <gh>, respectively, manifests under certain conditions, yes? It can be dropped, it seems, from the first person present.

I'm guessing in the case of léighim, <gh> disappears when the resulting spelling would give <ighi>, which is now simplified to <í> (as it is pronounced).

Is it a similar process for crúdhaim? Probably something to do with the broad set of vowels.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-09, 2:35

księżycowy wrote:So, in regard to the spelling of verbs like crúdhaim/crúim or léighim/léim I have a feeling that the <dh> and <gh>, respectively, manifests under certain conditions, yes? It can be dropped, it seems, from the first person present.

They only surface orthographically when the unsuffixed stem is involved, which is only in certain forms of the simple past and the imperative.

księżycowy wrote:I'm guessing in the case of léighim, <gh> disappears when the resulting spelling would give <ighi>, which is now simplified to <í> (as it is pronounced).

And then is dropped if this would otherwise result in two adjacent long vowels, i.e. *léím > léím.

Ó Siadhail explains all of this pretty lucidly in a lengthy section in the phonology part (starting on p 67).

księżycowy wrote:Is it a similar process for crúdhaim? Probably something to do with the broad set of vowels.

See Ó Siadhail p 70-73. Essentially, /ɣ/ only ever surfaces as such in initial position.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-09, 2:41

Do léigheas sé.

1. Another brainfart: this is affirmative, but it's glossed negative ("I haven't read it").
2. is the subject form only. The accusative form is simply é. Same goes (mutatis mutandis) for and siad, but not sinn or sibh.
3. The spelling is correct if you're using the pre-modern orthography. Otherwise the contraction you talk about above takes place.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-09, 9:37

Right. I completely forgot to negate it.

So it would be níor léias é, right? Is that the correct way to contract the verb?
Or would it be léas?

I'll check out Ó Siadhail this weekend, when I have some time.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-06-09, 11:17

księżycowy wrote:So it would be níor léias é, right? Is that the correct way to contract the verb?
Or would it be léas?

léas makes more sense to me. (Though you probably noticed that I'm not good at Munster forms, so this is just based on general spelling rules.)

Edit: The German version of GnaG has the a full table for léigh, so yes, léas it is.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-09, 12:01

Léas made more sense to me as well after I thought about it, as I interpreted the <i> as a glide to represent a slender <gh>.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-09, 12:49

księżycowy wrote:Léas made more sense to me as well after I thought about it, as I interpreted the <i> as a glide to represent a slender <gh>.

That kind of glide is characteristic of Ulster, according to Ó Siadhail. In Munster, it simply drops out. You either have a diphthong (e.g. feighil /fʲəilʲ/) or nothing at all.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-09, 12:53

Perhaps "glide" wasn't the best word to use.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-09, 13:17

księżycowy wrote:Perhaps "glide" wasn't the best word to use.

It's an off-glide, but not a semi-vowel. ("Glide" is used for both in linguistic terminology.)
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-09, 13:22

I basically meant "off-glide" then, as I understood it to not be a vowel (semi or otherwise) in it's own right.

I feel like I'm taking a basic linguistics course through Irish. :P

Which isn't a bad thing. :wink:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-09, 17:41

Do bhí an duine i mo dhiaidh ag siúl inniu.
I want to believe that I did pretty good with this sentence, but know I'm shakey on how to express "went for a walk".


This is from the multilingual TPAM thread over in the game forum.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-09, 18:02

księżycowy wrote:Do bhí an duine i mo dhiaidh ag siúl inniu.
I want to believe that I did pretty good with this sentence, but know I'm shakey on how to express "went for a walk".

This is "was walking today", which is clear enough. The usual term for "walking" in the sense of a recreational activity is spaisteoireacht, a verbal noun with no verbal stem. You could use it here in place of siúl or in a construction with deinim, e.g. Do dhein an duine im dhiaidh tamall spaisteoireachta inniubh.

The FNBG gives siúlóid, e.g. Chuaigh mé ar shiúlóid "I went for a walk". It's not a term I'm familiar with from Munster speakers or otherwise, but I found contemporary examples with deinim as well.

Tá an duine i mo dhiaidh falsa ar an Domhntaí.

Not sure where you got the form Domhntaí. The nom/acc plural is Domhnaigh and the adverbial form (with the genitive singular) is Dé Dohmnaigh or you can use the nom/acc singular with gach or ar an (which causes eclipsis in Munster, don't forget!).

You probably haven't gotten to this yet, but Irish has distinct habitual forms for the verb , which would be preferred here, i.e. Bíonn sé falsa Dé Domhnaigh.

Éadromód

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Keep in mind what the sentence you're answering is when you formulate a reply and remember that you're repeating the finite verb in your response. In:

The person after me would like to lose a bit of weight.

"lose...weight" appears as an infinitive. The finite verb in the sentence is would like. If I had to put this into Irish, it would be:

Ba mhaith leis an nduine im' dhiaidh beagán meacháin a chailleadh.

which I would answer in the positive with:

Ba mhaith.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-12, 3:41

Cad é do chaitheamh aimsire is fearr leat?

I wouldn't bother with do here since it sound pleonastic with leat in the subclause, but if you are going to use it remember that it causes lenition.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-12, 8:09

If I were to take out do, would i need the definite article?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-06-12, 13:04

I also have a question regarding what I learned in Lesson VIII on the copula. (That lesson was quite mind blowing, by the way. I'm still not sure if I have fully understood it all. I probably haven't.) Well, maybe not so much a question as a curiosity.

Is there any difference in meaning to the following two sentences:
Múinteoir maith is ea Séamas.
Séamas is ea múinteoir maith.
Or would the second sentence not be possible because of syntax or something?

I'm curious because of the way that it is sometime stated in the English. For example:
Garsún mór is ea Séamas. - Séamas is a big boy. (which literally translated is something like "a big boy is Séamas")

I also assume, much like we were discussing before, that this might be a peculiarity of the Munster dialect, but I still wanted to ask. :P


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