księżyc - Gaelainn

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księżycowy
Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-09, 13:25

Thanks for the suggestions An Lon Dubh!
An Lon Dubh wrote:One thing I'd recommend is Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, it's a book on Kerry Irish which is very similar to Cork Irish outside of a few minor points. Although it's written in Irish the vocab required is sort of limited. I wouldn't say get it now, but keep it in mind.

I kinda already have this book. I also have An Teanga Beo: Chorca Dhuibhne. :P

A good starting point for something short after you finish TYI would be Cúán Fithise and Sliabh na mBan bhFionn on the Cork Irish website. They're quite short, but you'll encounter most syntactic constructs in them.

I wish that they were in pdf format, but other than that I think that's an excellent suggestion.
I was also poking around and found some of the folkloric tales like:
An Garsún gur dhein Gaiscíoch de
Ó Donachú an Ghleanna
Tadhg Gabha agus an Diabhal

Ect.
I'm sure I'll read those at some point too. But the one's you suggest sound like an excellent starting point.

The advantage of Séadna is that really every "type of sentence" in Cork Irish is displayed in it, i.e. every type of syntax, so no sentence structure will really come as surprise after this. (There are some idiomatic constructs in Kerry, but you won't see these outside the Blasket authors).

I'll definitely try tackling this book at some point in my Irish studies.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2017-07-09, 19:15

I kinda already have this book. I also have An Teanga Beo: Chorca Dhuibhne

I'm an eijit! That's a far better book to read first than Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne. A lot of the grammar applies to Cork Irish as well. If you can, I'd have a read of the "An tAinmfhocal" chapter, it gives a very good guide to how the case system works these days anywhere in Munster, much simpler than the older system present in TYI. It's only a few pages and good practice at reading Irish in and of itself. I could post the "highlight" points if you wish.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-09, 20:11

I didn't bring my copy of the book with me, I'm currently at my cousin's for a week or so. A summary would be most welcome.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-11, 1:43

I haven't quite gotten to this in TYI (if it gets to this), but is there a way to tell the difference between is as the copula and is as 'and'?

I've poked around GnaG a bit, but have yet to find anything relevant. I'm guessing there isn't an easy answer (if any at all), but I'm curious.

I'm translating the poem Geasa by Ní Dhomhaill,
Imrímid is buann sí orm de shíor is cuireann sí de cheist...
I feel like those are 'ands' not the copula, but I'm the newbie here, so...

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-07-11, 11:22

I don't think the copula (or actually a copular relativ clause because the copula can only appear at the start of a clause) would be syntactically possible in the position of any of them, so that's already an answer. Or otherwise, just check what makes more sense semantically, as you would do with any other homonym.

Anyway, I agree with your conclusion that they mean "and" here.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-11, 15:18

It would definitely strike me as odd if two verbs were used like that, right in a row like that. Nor would it make sense sentence-wise either.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-11, 16:36

księżycowy wrote:It would definitely strike me as odd if two verbs were used like that, right in a row like that. Nor would it make sense sentence-wise either.

I don't know of any copular constructions involving finite verbs. There are a few involving verbal nouns, but these look very different.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-13, 13:34

I believe I have come across a few of what I assume are dialectal spellings in the poem which are not found in any dictionaries I've consulted thus far (i.e. the Cork dictionary and Ó Dónaill):
  • tairrigíonn - My best guess is that this is a form/spelling of tarraigím/tarraigim, which would make sense given the context: Tairrigíonn sí amach pasa cártaí...
  • de mhórualach - I'm guessing that is mórálach, but this one I'm not as sure about.
    The context is:
    [...] cuireann sí de cheist, de breith is de mhórualach orm.
    It's a little hard for me to piece this together to begin with. Something like:
    "She puts a question, a forfit*, a vanity(?) on me."
I'm thinking I wouldn't translate de in this series.

*I'm specifically thinking of the opening paragraph in on this page.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-13, 15:16

księżycowy wrote:tairrigíonn - My best guess is that this is a form/spelling of tarraigím/tarraigim, which would make sense given the context: Tairrigíonn sí amach pasa cártaí...

MCID gives the citation form as tairgim (since the medial syllable is predictable according to shwa epenthesis rules). Exchange of broad/slender qualities is extremely common in dialectal speech. Ó Siadhail lists dozens of examples for Cois Fhairrge.

księżycowy wrote:de mhórualach - I'm guessing that is mórálach, but this one I'm not as sure about.
The context is:
[...] cuireann sí de cheist, de bhreith is de mhórualach orm.
It's a little hard for me to piece this together to begin with. Something like:
"She puts a question, a forfit*, a vanity(?) on me."[/list]
I'm thinking I wouldn't translate de in this series.

I'm not really sure what those des are doing there to be honest. Perhaps they add the meaning "a sort of" (kind of an extension of the partitive)?

Mórualach is a compound of mór "great" and ualach "burden". Keep in mind that Irish has a wide assortment of modifying prefixes, most of which can be added either to adjectives or nouns. In ordinary speech, I mostly encountre them in fixed expressions but poets tend to use them more freely.

Ua derives historically from ó so you see some interchange of these sounds (e.g. mór is actually pronounced muar in West Cork) but I've never seen ua alternate with á.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-13, 17:59

linguoboy wrote:MCID gives the citation form as tairgim [...] Exchange of broad/slender qualities is extremely common in dialectal speech. Ó Siadhail lists dozens of examples for Cois Fhairrge.

Makes sense to me.

(since the medial syllable is predictable according to shwa epenthesis rules)

I'm not sure I know these rules.

bhreith

A typo. :P

I'm not really sure what those des are doing there to be honest. Perhaps they add the meaning "a sort of" (kind of an extension of the partitive)?

That very well could be it. I'm also glad I'm not the only one who was puzzled by it.

Mórualach is a compound of mór "great" and ualach "burden". Keep in mind that Irish has a wide assortment of modifying prefixes, most of which can be added either to adjectives or nouns. In ordinary speech, I mostly encountre them in fixed expressions but poets tend to use them more freely.

Ah! That makes a hell of a lot more sense than what I had thought it was.
I certainly know mór as an adjective, but I didn't know it could be a prefix too. So it works in the same way that the prefixes an(a)- and sean- do. Certainly good to note!

Ua derives historically from ó so you see some interchange of these sounds (e.g. mór is actually pronounced muar in West Cork) but I've never seen ua alternate with á.

That's interesting. I've picked up on some of the spelling/sound (inter)changes, but not this one.

Thanks, linguoboy! :D

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-13, 19:15

księżycowy wrote:
(since the medial syllable is predictable according to shwa epenthesis rules)

I'm not sure I know these rules.

ISTR a summary in the preface on pronunciation in TYI.

księżycowy wrote:
Ua derives historically from ó so you see some interchange of these sounds (e.g. mór is actually pronounced muar in West Cork) but I've never seen ua alternate with á.

That's interesting. I've picked up on some of the spelling/sound (inter)changes, but not this one.

I think I've already mentioned /noː/ for nua, but if not, there you have it again. ( in turn is /nuː/, perhaps to avoid homophony and perhaps due to the sporadic rule by which /o(ː)/ is lowered next to nasals.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-13, 20:10

linguoboy wrote:ISTR a summary in the preface on pronunciation in TYI.

I had wondered if that's what you meant after I responded.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-13, 20:49

I had forgotten that I had two other words I was having trouble figuring out earlier in the poem:
[...] mbíonn tógtha isló ages ná ceardaithe bíonn sé leagtha ar maidin romhan.
I can't figure out ages or romhan.
Everything else I've been able to figure out, more or less. Even isló.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-13, 21:22

księżycowy wrote:I had forgotten that I had to other words I was having trouble figuring out earlier in the poem:

Ba mhór an cúnamh dhuit iad a litriú go ceart. :P

księżycowy wrote:[...] mbíonn tógtha isló ages na ceardaithe bíonn sé leagtha ar maidin romham.
I can't figure out ages or romhan.
Everything else I've been able to figure out, more or less. Even isló.

Ages is a form taken by ag before na. TYI writes this as one word, i.e. agesna.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-13, 21:27

Huh, I could have sworn I double checked the spelling earlier. Whatever the case, go raibh maith agat!

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-26, 21:43

Alright!
I have finished my translation of Geasa by Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill! Let's see how well I did, shall we:

(The Irish text is copyright Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill; the English translation and notes are of my own creation)
I apologize in advance for the lack of line numbers, as I will be referencing lines below.

Geasa
Má chuirim aon lámh ar an dtearmann beannaithe,
má thógaim droichead thar an abhainn,
gach a mbíonn tógtha isló ages na ceardaithe
bíonn sé leagtha ar maidin romham.

Tagann aníos an abhainn istoíche bád
is bean ina seasamh inti.
Tá coinneal ar lasadh ina súil is ina lámha.
Tá dhá mhaide rámha aici.

Tairrigíonn sí amach paca cártaí,
'An imréofá breith?' a deireann sí.
Imrímid is buann sí orm de shíor
is cuireann sí de cheist, de bhreith is de mhórualach orm.

Gan an tarna béile a ithe in aon tigh,
ná an tarna oíche a chaitheamh faoi aon díon,
gan dhá shraic chodlata a dhéanamh ar aon leaba
go bhfaighead í. Nuair a fhiafraím di cá mbíonn sí,

'Dá mba siar é soir,' a deireann sí, 'dá mba soir é siar.'
Imíonn sí léi agus splancacha tintrí léi
is fágtar ansan mé ar an bport.
Tá an dá choinneal fós ar lasadh le mo thaobh.

D'fhág sí na maidí rámha agam.

Translation:
If I use [the] hand
protected [by] holiness,
if I raise a bridge beyond
the water, everything will be
risen on the day of the craftsmen
lowering the the morning before me

Coming up the river by night
is a woman standing in a boat.
Two candles in her hands lights her eye.
She has two oar.

She pulls out a pack of cards,
'Would you like to play Forfits?' she asks.
We play, and she wins constantly
and she puts forth a question, a forfit
and a great burden to me.

Without eating two meals in
one house, nor passing two nights
under one roof, without sleeping
upon one bed, I will find it then.
When I ask he where she lives,

'If it was west, east', she says,
'If it was east, west.'
She leaves with a flash of lighting
Leaving me there on the port.
Two candles still still light
my side.

She left the oars with me.


Notes:
line 1: ar an dtearmann - "under the protection (of)"

line 3: isló - sa lá "on the day"

line 4: leagtha - verbal adjective of leagaim "I lift/raise/take (up)"

line 7: coinneal - "(a) candle", as best as I can tell this is a singular noun, which is interesting. It could be translated as a plural because of it's use with "two". This is probably the intent, as can have a singular or plural noun after it grammatically.

line 8: dhá mhaide rámha - Literally "two beam/stick oars." Rámh itself means oar, maide rámha means "oar" as well.

line 10: a deireann sí - literally "she says", but I translated it as "she asks", as what she says is a question.

line 11: de shíor - "constantly"

line 18: splancacha tintrí - "flash of lightning"

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-26, 22:08

księżycowy wrote:I have finished my translation of Geasa by Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill!

It's meant to be oddly literal, like calques of Classical poetry for adolescent students from a previous century?

I'm assuming "risen" for leagtha is some kind of brain fart. Have you learned the Irish "perfect passive" construction yet? It's the one that looks like this:

Tá an leabhar léite agam. "I've (just) read the book."
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-26, 23:20

If you're asking me if I made my translation quite close to the original Irish, then yes. I considered this more of an exercise in recognizing the grammar and vocabulary more then producing some poetic gem.
In short, yes, it's suppose to be "oddly literal." :wink:


And no, I had not learned the perfect passive quite yet. I did read (in passing) the chapter on the passive and impersonal in TYI*, but apparently it was lost on me that leagtha was connected I'm afraid.


*Which probably doesn't go over this form anyway, knowing how that textbook operates. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-27, 2:50

księżycowy wrote:And no, I had not learned the perfect passive quite yet. I did read (in passing) the chapter on the passive and impersonal in TYI*, but apparently it was lost on me that leagtha was connected I'm afraid.

*Which probably doesn't go over this form anyway, knowing how that textbook operates. :P

Not in that chapter, but it contains a footnote directing you to the chapter which does (Ch. 27).

The first stanza will make more sense to you after you've read it.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-07-27, 10:04

Okie-dokie. I'll give it a read, and readjust as best as I can. That stanza was the hardest of them all IMO.


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