księżyc - Gaelainn

[księżycowy]

You seem to have forgotten everything I said about deinim cócaireacht ar being a phrasal verb and cad requiring a relativisation of the main clause.

I probably have. I'll look it over again.

I think I should stick to easier sentences and questions until I'm a bit further into TYI. I feel like these responses require things I haven't gotten to yet.
Lesson 9 breifly touches on relative sentences, but not very much, and not in the context of question words

[linguoboy]

I think I should stick to easier sentences and questions until I'm a bit further into TYI. I feel like these responses require things I haven't gotten to yet.

Déanta na fírinne, I was thinking the same thing.

Lesson 9 breifly touches on relative sentences, but not very much, and not in the context of question words

Honestly the treatment of relativisation and question formation in TYI isn't very good. I really recommend looking at GnaG for these topics.

[księżycowy]

Honestly the treatment of relativisation and question formation in TYI isn't very good. I really recommend looking at GnaG for these topics.

I can easily see that being the case.

I'll suppliment TYI with both Ó Siadhail and GnaG as best I can from now on.

[linguoboy]

I'll suppliment TYI with both Ó Siadhail and GnaG as best I can from now on.

Ó Siadhail is good for identifying Munster-specific syntactic variations. I don't find his treatment comprehensive enough to use on its own.

[księżycowy]

So, the recommendation is more heavily rely on GnaG, and stick in a dash of Ó Siadhail on occasion for good measure, do it seems. That makes it easier at least. I'd hate to have to reference three works at one all the time. Two is more than enough.

[linguoboy]

So, the recommendation is more heavily rely on GnaG, and stick in a dash of Ó Siadhail on occasion for good measure, do it seems. That makes it easier at least. I'd hate to have to reference three works at one all the time. Two is more than enough.

I would say go to GnaG when you need instructions on how to formulate a particular construction. Rely on Ó Siadhail when you want to know if that construction is idiomatic for Munster dialect.

For vocab, I use a combination of TYI, Ó Cuív, and My Cork Irish Dictionary to isolate Corkisms. That's a lot more work than just consulting www.focloir.ie or de Bhaldraithe, so I recommend it only if you're hardcore about learning Cork Irish.

[księżycowy]

I would say go to GnaG when you need instructions on how to formulate a particular construction. Rely on Ó Siadhail when you want to know if that construction is idiomatic for Munster dialect.

Sounds like a good course of action. Thanks.

For vocab, I use a combination of TYI, Ó Cuív, and My Cork Irish Dictionary to isolate Corkisms. That's a lot more work than just consulting http://www.focloir.ie or de Bhaldraithe, so I recommend it only if you're hardcore about learning Cork Irish.

At this point, I fully understand the difficulties with learning/looking up Munster specific vocabulary. It is a pain in the ass, but I really do want to focus on Munster Irish.

I admit that I will eventually pick up a decent bit of CO (well, what differences there are between Munster and CO), and probably a bit of the other two main dialects as well, but given family connections and personal interest, it's gonna be Munster for the most part.

By Ó Cuív, do you mean Brian Ó Cuív's work, The Irish of West Muskerry?

[linguoboy]

By Ó Cuív, do you mean Brian Ó Cuív's work, The Irish of West Muskerry?

I do.

The title is something of a misnomer. He's really only concerned about the phonology of the dialect, but the work does contain a comprehensive index. If a term is absent, that doesn't mean it's not in use, but its presence is prima facie evidence for its currency in West Muskerry at the time he was writing. The selection is heavily weighted toward words with exceptional pronunciations, which is very useful.

[księżycowy]

That's excellent then, as I already have a copy of his work!

I was actually going to look at it when we were discussing the spellings of verbs like léighim vs. léim. I'm not sure if consulting that work would have helped, but I haven't gotten a chance to read it over anyway. (Or Ó Siadhail for that matter)

[linguoboy]

I was actually going to look at it when we were discussing the spellings of verbs like léighim vs. léim. I'm not sure if consulting that work would have helped, but I haven't gotten a chance to read it over anyway. (Or Ó Siadhail for that matter)

He uses the pre-reform spellings, which is useful for some purposes and not others.

He also doesn't have any complete verbal paradigms, just selected forms which either exemplify certain phonological points or which appear in the vernacular texts he includes in the middle section. For these, Cork Irish is the best resource.

[księżycowy]

I was going to download My Irish - English Dictionary over at Cork Irish, but the pdf seems to be gone. Anyone have a copy they could share with me?

[księżycowy]

I have to admit, I'm starting to succumb to the issues of TYI, and am eyeing my copy of the third edition of Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish.

[księżycowy]

Linguoboy, do you have any recommendations for anything I might read either in addition to or after I'm done with TYI.

I would love to hear that there is something in simple Munster Irish I could read along with doing the exercises out of TYI, but knowing the state to Munster, I'm doubtful. Thought I'd ask anyway though.

I know if can suppliment TYI a bit with Pimsleur, but the dialogues are really short.

[linguoboy]

Linguoboy, do you have any recommendations for anything I might read either in addition to or after I'm done with TYI.

Séadna. TYI includes the first chapter and you can find the full text on Wikisource.

The first novel I read in Irish after finishing TYI was Brian O'Nolan's An béal bocht. His Irish is non-native, but he had a terrific ear for the language and read widely. Aside from one chapter set in Ulster, the language is pretty close to Literary Irish, which is based on Munster. He's also closely parodying the autobiographical works of Gaeltacht writers, notably the Blasket Islanders Tomás Ó Criomhthain and Peig Sayers, who were native speakers of a Munster dialect.

I would love to hear that there is something in simple Munster Irish I could read along with doing the exercises out of TYI, but knowing the state to Munster, I'm doubtful. Thought I'd ask anyway though.

How do you feel about poetry? Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill was brought up in Dingle. I think her poems are brilliant and a refreshing break from more traditional Irish literature. She belongs to a group called the "Innti school" which was centred in Cork. I'm not saying her poems are easy for a beginner to make sense of, but reading and digesting a twenty-line poem is still less work than twenty-page short story or chapter in a novel.

Even though it's technically considered a Connacht variety, I've found the dialect used by authors from the Aran Islands such as Liam Ó Flaithbheartaigh or Breandán Ó hEithir pretty comprehensible. It's not easy to find works from either of them, however.

[księżycowy]

Séadna. TYI includes the first chapter and you can find the full text on Wikisource.

I intend to read that book eventually, but from what I understand, Séadna may not be the best starting point for reading Ua Laoghaire (or so the guy over at Cork Irish would have me think). I know that there are two of Ua Laoghaire's other works over at Cork Irish that have glossaries at the end and at least one of them has audio recorded for it.

The first novel I read in Irish after finishing TYI was Brian O'Nolan's An béal bocht. His Irish is non-native, but he had a terrific ear for the language and read widely. Aside from one chapter set in Ulster, the language is pretty close to Literary Irish, which is based on Munster. He's also closely parodying the autobiographical works of Gaeltacht writers, notably the Blasket Islanders Tomás Ó Criomhthain and Peig Sayers, who were native speakers of a Munster dialect.

Interesting. I'll have to see about picking up a copy maybe then.

How do you feel about poetry? Nuala Ní Dhomhnaill was brought up in Dingle. I think her poems are brilliant and a refreshing break from more traditional Irish literature. She belongs to a group called the "Innti school" which was centred in Cork. I'm not saying her poems are easy for a beginner to make sense of, but reading and digesting a twenty-line poem is still less work than twenty-page short story or chapter in a novel.

I like poetry. Are her poems also translated into English? I think I'd like to start here. Any particular place you could point me to to find any of her stuff?

EDIT: Nevermind, after browsing on a few online book stories, I've found a few of her works. One for 5$! And most are dual-language! Score!

Even though it's technically considered a Connacht variety, I've found the dialect used by authors from the Aran Islands such as Liam Ó Flaithbheartaigh or Breandán Ó hEithir pretty comprehensible. It's not easy to find works from either of them, however.

Well, I do intend, after I've gotten a good grasp on Munster to study Connacht Irish (big surprise, I'm sure ).
Back when I was thinking of studying the Connacht dialect (because basically all I had was Learning Irish) I picked up one or two of the works that Ó Siadhail recommends at the back of his book. I very well may dig those out sometime too.

[linguoboy]

Interesting. I'll have to see about picking up a copy maybe then.

Do. He's an absolutely brilliant writer. There's an English-language translation available, which should be a great help with some of the more complex passages. But there's really no substitute for reading the address to the conference of Gaeilgeoirí in Irish.

Fuck it, here it is in its full glory:

"A Ghaela", aduirt sé, "cuireann sé gliondar ar mo chroi Gaelach a bheith anseo inniu ag caint Ghaeilge libhse ar an fheis Ghaelach seo i lár na Gaeltachta. Ní miste dom a rá gur Gael mise. Táim Gaelach ó m’ bhathais go bonn mo choise - Gaelach thoir, thiar, thuas agus thios. Tá sibhse go léir fíorGhaelach mar an gcéanna. Gael Ghaelacha de shliocht Ghaelach is ea an t-iomlán againn. An té atá Gaelach, beidh sé Gaelach feasta. Níor labhair mise (ach oiread libh féin) aon fhocal ach Gaeilge ón lá rugadh mé agus, rud eile, is fán nGaeilge amháin a bhí gach abairt dár ndúras riamh. Má táimid fíorGhaelach, ní foláir dúinn bheith ag plé ceist na Gaeilge agus ceist an Ghaelachais le chéile i gcónai. Ni haon mhaitheas Gaeilge bheith againn má bhíonn ár gcomhrái sa teanga sin ar neithe neamhGhaelacha. An té a bhíonn ag caint Gaeilge ach gan a bheith ag plé ceist na teanga, níl sé fíorGhaelach ina chroí istigh ní haon tairbhe don Ghaelachas a leithéid sin mar gur ag magadh faoin Ghaeilge a bhíonn sé agus ag tabhairt masla do Ghaelaibh. Níl aon ní ar an domhan chomh deas nó chomh deas nó chomh Gaelach le fíorGhaeil fíorGhaelacha a bhíonn ag caint fíorGhaeilge Gaelaí i dtaobh na Gaeilge fíorGhaelai. Fógraím an fheis seo anois ar Ghaeloscailt! Na Gaeil abú! Go maire ár nGaeilge slán!"
Nuair a shuí aón Gael uasal seo síos ar a thóin Ghaelach, d’éirigh clampar mór agus bualadh bos ar fud an chruinnithe.

[księżycowy]

I was going to try to translate that, but then my poetry book came so I've decided to start with some of the shorter poems instead.

Of course, I'll swing back around to An Béal Bocht eventually.

[linguoboy]

I was going to try to translate that

In that case I'd better finish correcting the OCR errors.

[księżycowy]

Not a problem.
It will probably be a while before I do translate that.

[An Lon Dubh]

One thing I'd recommend is Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, it's a book on Kerry Irish which is very similar to Cork Irish outside of a few minor points. Although it's written in Irish the vocab required is sort of limited. I wouldn't say get it now, but keep it in mind.

A good starting point for something short after you finish TYI would be Cúán Fithise and Sliabh na mBan bhFionn on the Cork Irish website. They're quite short, but you'll encounter most syntactic constructs in them.

The advantage of Séadna is that really every "type of sentence" in Cork Irish is displayed in it, i.e. every type of syntax, so no sentence structure will really come as surprise after this. (There are some idiomatic constructs in Kerry, but you won't see these outside the Blasket authors).