Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2012-04-06, 17:46

hwyl wrote:I've heard many people say that 'wnes i gerdded' is the normal spoken Welsh form. However, I work with a range of people of all ages from the south and I'd say that 'cerddais i' is by far the most normal form. I think 'wnes i...' constructions are gaining wider usage that before (included the dreaded 'wnes i wneud'!), through northern school teachers and the media, but first language southern speakers still seem to prefer fully inflected forms.


I'm not even sure that nes i forms are the Northern norm. I come across ddaru even this far east, and I know people who find both nes i and the inflected past weird (but will use inflected future, weirdly). I think nes i is more a feature of media Welsh and second-language teaching than it is of Northern dialects. Presumably there are dialects where it is common - the Northeast for example - but I have a feeling that its spread here has more to do with its preeminence in the media than with its natural use.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby hwyl » 2012-04-18, 12:40

Hmmm....maybe. Among the northern speakers I know, I'd say that 'nes i...' was a lot more common that 'ddaru...'. They do use 'ddaru...' but I wouldn't expect to hear it used in sentence after sentence, in they way you'd say, "nes i godi'n gynnar, wedyn nes i watsio teledu am chydig, wedyn nes i gerdded i'r gwaith".

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby johnfm » 2012-07-22, 12:58

My grandfather was from Prestigne, Wales and I have been there once and would like to return again. My main desire is to learn how to speak a little Welsh before returning. I have seen Rosetta Stone advertise their course but don't want to waste money on a course if they don't work.

I guess my main question is, how does an absolute beginner start to learn Welsh, to me it seems quite complicated.

Thanks,
John

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2012-07-22, 14:57

johnfm wrote:I guess my main question is, how does an absolute beginner start to learn Welsh, to me it seems quite complicated.

No more complicated than any other European language.

Have you tried looking at any of the sites listed in the Resources Thread? Some of them are aimed at absolute beginners.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby ceid donn » 2012-07-22, 18:38

I can't recommend Rosetta Stone. It's overpriced for what you get.

The Celtic languages do differ from most other Euro languages in syntax, grammar, pronunciation and phonetics. They also use the Roman script differently, which is why you hear people saying wonderfully enlightened things like "Irish/Gaelic/Welsh isn't pronounced the way it's written at all!!!" or "No wonder it's a dying language--it's written like a 3-year-old was just pounding on a keyboard." When I started learning Scottish Gaelic I had already studied 4 European languages--German, French, Latin and Greek--as well as knowing English, and I still found many things very unfamiliar. It actually intimidated me so much that I quit shortly after my first attempt.

But this is what I did on my 2nd and much more successful attempt with Gaelic: I used the BBC resources, which are free, and just listened to the sound files, learned basic phrases and got used to how it sound and how it look in written form. I mainly used the Colin and Cumberland files that you find in the "Little Black Book" section--they have the same thing for Welsh--and literally just listened to the files for a few weeks before I started really studying grammar or vocabulary.

So I'd recommend seeing what BBC has for Welsh in additional to the Colin and Cumberland stuff-- it's all free, so hey.

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby nailgun » 2012-08-09, 22:45

Inntinneach - "es i", "mi wnes i fynd", "mi ddaru i fi fynd" (the last two usually just "[w]nes i fynd" and "ddaru fi fynd"). For Real Effect, try "euthum"... Incidentally, the literary "gwnes i" is "gwneuthum", and "ddaru fi" is "darfu im". I suppose one could literally translate the three forms as "I went", "I did go" and "It happened for me to go" (? like Yorkshire "Happen I went"?).

On writing, the three extant Brythonic languages all use markedly different systems. Of the extant Goidelic ones, Irish and Gaelic are broadly similar (though far from identical), while Manx is very different. Mediaeval Welsh orthography was often closer to how modern Cornish is written than to modern Welsh.

Have you considered, e.g., trying to learn English from scratch, using only your knowledge of another language to help you? Let us suppose that language is Welsh. What strange features of English would you notice? Would you feel, perhaps, that English was a particularly difficult language to learn? Would you say things like "Is she throwing" when you meant to say "It is raining"? The point is that any language that does things in an unfamiliar way will seem to be "difficult".

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-04-06, 13:06

Helo! Mae cwestiwn gyda fi! :) Beth ydw i'n dweud os dw i'n moyn dweud 'I want to have a dog'? Oes rhaid i fi ddweud 'Dw i'n moyn bod ci gyda fi'...? Mae fe'n gymhleth iawn :(

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2013-04-06, 13:48

Beth yw'r wahaniaeth, yn wir, rhwng "I want to have a dog" a "I want a dog"? Ond f'allet ti ddweud "Dw i'n moyn cael ci", os mynni di.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Swienegel » 2013-12-17, 0:21

Noswaith da!

For some time I've had the plan to start learning Welsh. And in the last days this plan has finally become more concrete. The first thing I did was of course looking for books and learners' material on the internet. There seems to be a really good book in German, but since I'm abroad at the moment, I don't have access to it.
Now I borrowed "Teach yourself Welsh" in my town's university library. I like that little book already, the only problem is that it was printed in 1960. So the first question I have arises from this fact.

The first lesson starts with personal pronouns. ti is translated as thou or the "familiar you", while chwi is not only the plural form but also the "polite you". And the book explains that, I quote: "CHWI is the normal polite form, and TI should be avoided until you know the language very well indeed!"

The concept of this is of course very familiar to me as a German, but I could imagine that people my age in Wales (I'm a "typical-aged" university student) have been influenced by English so much that chwi is not used much anymore as a polite singular form. But I wouldn't want to embarrass anyone, either way... is chwi only for old people nowadays, while everyone else, no matter how well you know them, is ti?

Or it still the case today, as the book explains it? Or is it a mirror of "politeness in historical times"? ;)

I would be happy to read any qualified answer :)

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2013-12-17, 1:30

Swienegel wrote:Now I borrowed "Teach yourself Welsh" in my town's university library. I like that little book already, the only problem is that it was printed in 1960. So the first question I have arises from this fact.

Bowen and Jones? Yeah, I have that. It really should be called "Teach Yourself Literary Welsh", because that's what it teaches you. You would sound hilariously stilted if you spoke any of those sentences in daily life. It would be like using the language of Luther's Bible. For instance, you will never hear anyone say Y maent hwy yn byw yn Lloegr. It's Maen nhw'n byw yn Lloegr.

Swienegel wrote:The first lesson starts with personal pronouns. ti is translated as thou or the "familiar you", while chwi is not only the plural form but also the "polite you". And the book explains that, I quote: "CHWI is the normal polite form, and TI should be avoided until you know the language very well indeed!"

Case in point: chwi is obsolete; the modern colloquial form is chi. When I first learned Welsh in the 90s, I was told to learn the chi forms and use them with strangers, even though most would probably switch to ti with me anyway. On the Internet, I don't even bother, I just use ti from the start, which is what I see from native speakers. (Observe, for instance, the exchanges in this thread.)

In the first edition (1993) of his excellent Modern Welsh: a comprehensive grammar, Gareth King is a bit more restrictive. He says the only people ti should be used with are "a close member of the family", "a close friend", or "a child". I'd say just follow the same rules as you do for German and adjust according to the reactions you get.

Ble mae dy dre di? [Lit: Ble y mae dy dref?]
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Swienegel » 2013-12-18, 1:01

Thank you so much for your explanation!

Dw i'n astudio yng Ngreifswald yn yr Almaen, ond yr blwydd hon dw i'n astudio yn Nhartu yn Estonia. Dw i'n astudio Ffineg a Estoneg ym mhrifysgol.

Okay, it just took me forever to puzzle those sentences together ;) and maybe they are a grammatical mess, but I tried!


Yes, it's Bowen and Jones. I know that this book won't teach me how to speak... I'll probably buy a German book from the "Kauderwelsch"-series as well, those books are cheap and they are known for being more colloquial and less grammatical. And then I'll try to listen to Welsh regularly on the internet, just to get used to the sound.
The reason of all of this is, by the way, that I'm planning to attend the Welsh language summer course at Cardiff University next summer... :partyhat:

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2013-12-18, 3:02

Swienegel wrote:Dw i'n astudio yng Greifswald yn yr Almaen, ond y flwyddyn hon dw i'n astudio yn Tartu yn Estonia. Dw i'n astudio Ffineg ac Estoneg yn y brifysgol.

Da iawn! Cwpl o awgrymiadau (a couple of pointers):

1. Foreign names don't get mutated in Welsh, only Welsh names do. However, this applies not just to places in Wales but to any place with a distinctly Welsh form of its name. So: yn Karlsruhe, yn Colmar, but yng Nghwlen[*] (Köln).

2. There is actually a special word in Welsh for "this year": eleni (cf. dial. Ger. heuer). However, y flwyddyn hon is also used. Knowing which word to use for "year" is tricky in Welsh. The basic word is blwyddyn and it's feminine (thus the soft mutation after the article). Blwydd is used in the special sense of "years old", e.g. Rwy'n tair blwydd ar ddeugain oed, but otherwise the form used after numerals is blynedd (with appropriate mutations).

Swienegel wrote:The reason of all of this is, by the way, that I'm planning to attend the Welsh language summer course at Cardiff University next summer... :partyhat:

'Na fachan lwcus! Rwy'n genfigennus!


[*] More colloquially, yn Gwlen. The nasal mutation is on the way out in colloquial Welsh.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby benjamino59 » 2014-02-16, 20:48

I finally decided to learn Welsh! :D

But I'm a bit confused by the phonology. What's the IPA of "nhw"? And is words such as "i'n" and "e'n" pronounced like "in" and "en", or is there a glottal stop between the vowel and consonant?

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2014-02-17, 0:28

benjamino59 wrote:But I'm a bit confused by the phonology. What's the IPA of "nhw"?

[n̥u]. (In many dialects, simply [nu].)

benjamino59 wrote:And is words such as "i'n" and "e'n" pronounced like "in" and "en", or is there a glottal stop between the vowel and consonant?

The apostrophe is strictly orthographic. Glottal stops aren't really a feature of Welsh so far as I can tell.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby wilz444 » 2014-10-13, 8:03

'Dwi'n mor hapus i weld pobl yn siarad Gymraeg ar-lein, ac i weld pobl yn dysgu'r iaith. :)
Fluent (native):  (cy)  (en), Okay:  (fr)  (es), Want to learn  (sq)  (ka)  (lv)  (kk)

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2014-10-13, 16:48

A rw i'n hapus i weld siaradwr iaith gyntaf fan'yn. Wyt ti'n Gog neu Hwntw?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby wilz444 » 2014-10-13, 18:15

'Dwi'n dod o Sir Gâr, felly hwntw. Mae fy Gymraeg ddim yn berffaith, yn enwedig gyda treigladau, oherwydd 'dwi dal yn ysgol. Mae'r ysgol yn ysgol Gymraeg, felly 'dwi 'di astudio yn Gymraeg am y rhan fwyaf o fy mywyd.
Fluent (native):  (cy)  (en), Okay:  (fr)  (es), Want to learn  (sq)  (ka)  (lv)  (kk)

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2014-10-14, 17:10

Dal yn ysgol? Wyt ti hyd yn hyn yn eitha ifanc?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby wilz444 » 2014-10-17, 14:52

Ydw
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Swienegel

Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Swienegel » 2014-12-17, 1:53

So, since it didn't happen this year when I wanted to visit the summer school in Cardiff, I've been planning ahead! And today I posted my application for next year's summer course in Bangor. So I can't bail out anymore ;) Four weeks of Welsh in June and July :partyhat:


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