Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

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Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2009-10-13, 22:52

Mae gan bawb un o'r rhain. All rhywun wneud hwn 'sticky'?
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby malwoden fach » 2009-11-07, 23:30

Wel, oes yn ddigon pobl sy'n moyn grwp trafodaeth? Os oes, yna yr hyn bod ni'n angen yw cychwyniad ac wyt ti wedi'i neud yn barod. Oes pwnc gyda thi? Sori, dw i'n siarad "Hwntw".

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Æren » 2011-01-04, 9:05

Hi!
Could someone tell me how to read/pronounce these, I think they are in Welsh, because I have no idea of this language (yet):
Amlawdd
Caledvwlch

Thank you! :)
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-01-04, 18:13

'Amlawdd' sounds Welsh, and I seem to remember it's a name of some Celtic bloke, although I have no idea of any actual meaning. It's not in any of the online dictionaries either. I'll check it out in y Geiriadur Mawr tomorrow. It'd be pronounced /'am.lauð/ in the IPA.

'Caledvlwch' is not spelt Welshly - it could be Cornish, since they have a similar spelling system but replace 'f' with 'v'. 'Caledflwch' is not a Welsh word, as far as I know - 'caled' means 'hard', though, and 'blwch' means box.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2011-01-04, 19:37

YngNghymru wrote:'Caledvlwch' is not spelt Welshly - it could be Cornish, since they have a similar spelling system but replace 'f' with 'v'. 'Caledflwch' is not a Welsh word, as far as I know - 'caled' means 'hard', though, and 'blwch' means box.

This looks to me like a variant spelling of Caledvwlch ("hard notch"), the Middle Welsh name of King Arthur's sword. (Cf. Med. Latin Caliburnus.) Like Amlawdd, it appears in the mediaeval Welsh tale Kulhwch ac Olwen.

Incidentally, one of the consequences of the stress shift between Middle and Modern Welsh is that /au/ in the final syllable of polysyllabic words monophthongises. Thus, the modern form of Amlawdd would be Amlodd.

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-01-04, 21:15

Na. Mi ddylwn i, dw i'n gwybod, ond dw i heb ddarllen mwy na tipyn ohono yn y Saesneg, hyd yn oed... :? Hollol heb ddiwyddiant dw i!

Incidentally, one of the consequences of the stress shift between Middle and Modern Welsh is that /au/ in the final syllable of polysyllabic words monophthongises. Thus, the modern form of Amlawdd would be Amlodd.


Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that. Athro, anodd...
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Æren » 2011-01-07, 12:16

Ok thanks :)
But still, how to pronounce the second one?
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby linguoboy » 2011-01-07, 15:42

Æren wrote:But still, how to pronounce the second one?

Caledfwlch [kʰa'ledvʊlx].
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-01-07, 17:14

Oh, by the way, whilst you might expect a modern form 'amlodd', you do have 'ansawdd', which has similar phonetics and is maintained in the modern language (although this may be a literary form that continues to be used, I suppose).
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby corcaighist » 2011-05-21, 10:45

Bore da! Colm dw i. I am from Ireland and I am interested in learning Welsh. I have picked up a few phrases here and there and I just wanted to say 'hello' and that I hope to have enough Welsh soon to participate on the forum...achos dw i'n hoffi siarad Cymraeg!

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby jowan » 2011-05-30, 14:44

YngNghymru wrote:'Caledvlwch' is not spelt Welshly - it could be Cornish, since they have a similar spelling system but replace 'f' with 'v'. 'Caledflwch' is not a Welsh word, as far as I know - 'caled' means 'hard', though, and 'blwch' means box.


That's definitely not Cornish :)
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-05-30, 17:24

Well, it could be, since it's a Welsh word for a sword which may equally appear in Cornish legends.

Also as usual I mixed up 'bwlch' and 'blwch'; 'bwlch' means 'gap' (or as Linguoboy has pointed out, 'notch'), 'blwch' means box. This happens with irritating frequency. :evil:
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Wishful Learner » 2011-11-27, 17:20

A small question:

On the BBC link that is linked in the resource thread, they use the phrase dau dþ for 'two houses'. Is the þ character still used in Welsh, or has this been replaced? This is the first time I've come across this character in Welsh before.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2011-11-27, 17:56

It's a rendering error. The BBC page has trouble producing the characters <Ŷ ŷ> (that is, <y> with a circumflex or to bach - if the error's at your end you might still see them as thorn). Thorn, as far as I know, has never been used in Welsh, and if it ever was I highly doubt it would've been used for this particular sound.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Wishful Learner » 2011-11-27, 18:00

YngNghymru wrote:It's a rendering error. The BBC page has trouble producing the characters <Ŷ ŷ> (that is, <y> with a circumflex or to bach - if the error's at your end you might still see them as thorn). Thorn, as far as I know, has never been used in Welsh, and if it ever was I highly doubt it would've been used for this particular sound.


Ah! I thought so - I thought the word tþ would sound a little weird anyway. :P
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Wishful Learner » 2012-02-18, 14:21

Helo pawb! :)

Mae cwestiwn gyda fi! How can "a little" be expressed? Is it just "Rydw i 'n siarad ........ Cymraeg", or does it follow 'Cymraeg' like an adjective? Also, where would words such as "of course" and "sort of" go? :)

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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2012-02-18, 21:31

I think the most natural way to say it is probably 'dw i'n siarad y Gymraeg dipyn bach'. Alternatively you could say 'dw i'n siarad tipyn bach o'r Gymraeg'.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby Wishful Learner » 2012-02-18, 23:15

Diolch. :D

Also, what's more natural: wnes i fynd or es i? Are there subtle differences between them, or is there just simply a preference?
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby YngNghymru » 2012-02-18, 23:55

I don't think there's a difference. I think I would say es i generally speaking, but prefer nes i... for most verbs. Irregular verbs tend to use more short forms: I might also say a i o 'ma for 'I'll leave' but pan na i gyrraedd fan'ne for 'when I get there'. The preference varies dialectally; some dialects (northwestern) use a completely different construction (ddaru mi or something similar) and use neither of these alternatives, many generally prefer forms with gwneud but make an exception, or at least more of an exception, for irregular verbs, and some make very broad use of inflected forms. Generally speaking speakers are more likely to use the short past tense than either of the other two concise forms, but there are dialects in the South where all three are used and with many northwestern speakers - at least older ones - you get short conditional and short future with irregular verbs in use but no short past because of the alternative construction.

If you want to speak the dodgy standard they teach learners these days, use the endings. Otherwise I'd say you're safe either way. There's no semantic difference between the two forms that I perceive.
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Re: Grŵp trafodaeth Cymraeg - Welsh discussion group

Postby hwyl » 2012-03-31, 15:02

Sut mae! I agree that there's no semantic distinction between 'wnes i fynd' and 'es i' oe 'wnes i gerdded' vs 'cerddais i'. But I'd like to make the point that some northern speakers tend to assume that certain traits that are completely contemporary and normal in the south are 'literary Welsh' because they're not in their own dialect.

I've heard many people say that 'wnes i gerdded' is the normal spoken Welsh form. However, I work with a range of people of all ages from the south and I'd say that 'cerddais i' is by far the most normal form. I think 'wnes i...' constructions are gaining wider usage that before (included the dreaded 'wnes i wneud'!), through northern school teachers and the media, but first language southern speakers still seem to prefer fully inflected forms.

My grandfather was born in 1904 and I've got an interview tape of him and I don't think he uses any 'wnes i/wna i' forms, except maybe as a command, e.g. 'bihafia wnei di!'. Food for thought.


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