Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby linguoboy » 2014-04-21, 20:03

enricmm wrote:It mentions that it only applies to adjectives, but not pronouns.

I think you may be reading it wrong. (I'll check myself when I get back home where my copy is.) Caol le caol agus leathan le leathan is one of the most basic rules of the language. True exceptions to it are few and far between.

ETA: I had a look and, you're right, he doesn't mention this rule in relation to the contrast forms. Moreover, the text has mo chuidsa instead of (standard) mo chuidse, so this appears to be a genuine Connemara variant. I also found examples for Ulster and Scottish Gaelic. Looks like your examples were fine after all.

The rules governing use of these suffixes in the standard language can be found in Section 13.37 [p. 135-6] of this document (Gaeilge amháin, but you should be able to make sense of the examples) http://www.scriobh.ie/ScriobhIe/Media/Graimear%20Gaeilge%20na%20mBraithre%20Criostai_Eag1999.pdf. (Interesting, I didn't realise that mo chuid Gaeilgese was acceptable alongside mo chuidse Gaeilge. Also, nota bene: "Le focail dar críoch litir leathan a naisctear -na, -sa, -san; agus le focail dar críoch litir chaol a naisctear -e, -ne, -se, -sean.")

I'm not very familiar with Connemara Irish, but I assume the forms Ó Siadhail gives are special to Cois Fhairrge (and perhaps other Connacht varieties as well).
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Deghebh » 2014-05-27, 11:10

Caol le caol is not a rule of grammar, but a rule of euphonics.
If there is a non buccal consonant intervening, then the euphonic requirement is missing, and the rule is only required 'grammatically'.
For instance: 'anseo' : a nasal intervenes.

Le meas,
Deghebh.

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-27, 16:10

Deghebh wrote:For instance: 'anseo' : a nasal intervenes.

Which in Munster Irish (the variety you've been studying, right?) is anso.
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby kevin » 2014-05-27, 20:10

Nach é cuspóir an snáithe seo scríobh as Gaeilge?

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-27, 20:25

kevin wrote:Nach é cuspóir an snáithe seo scríobh as Gaeilge?


Ceapaim go bhfuil sé ceart go leor díospóireacht faoin nGaeilge a dhéanamh i gceann éigin den dá theanga anseo. Ach cinnte gurb í an Ghaeilge an ceann is fearr :wink:
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby kevin » 2014-05-27, 21:47

Ceart go leor, ach tá gá agam le cleachtadh agus mar sin is fearr í an Ghaeilge go deimhin. ;)

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-27, 22:40

kevin wrote:Ceart go leor, ach tá gá agam le cleachtadh agus mar sin is fearr í an Ghaeilge go deimhin. ;)


An bhfuil tú ag smaoineamh ar a hatosú?
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby kevin » 2014-05-28, 21:59

Níor scríobh mé mórán anseo, ach níor stad mé ach oiread.

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-05-28, 22:46

kevin wrote:Níor scríobh mé mórán anseo, ach níor stad mé ach oiread.


Is maith an scéal é sin! Ní raibh a fhios agam go raibh tú ag gabháil di fós. An bhfuil tú ag úsáid cúrsa ar leith?
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby kevin » 2014-05-29, 21:16

Níl. B'fhéidir is cosúil go bhfuil sin níos mó ná mar atá sé i ndáiríre. Ní fhoghlaimím ach nuair a bhfuil mé ag léamh an fhóraim agus ag déanamh beagán de Memrise. (Agus tá mé an-mhall fós ;))

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby enricmm » 2014-06-17, 9:12

I've a doubt on the so called feminine of reference. How can I know when a masculine noun uses the feminine of reference or not by looking its entry in a dictionary or similar?
Native:  (ca) Native against my will:  (es)
Advanced:  (de)  (us)
Intermediate:  (zh)
Beginner:  (ga)  (ja)
Interested:  (ar)  (br)  (cy)  (egy)  (el)  (eo)  (eu)  (fo)  (fr)  (gl)  (got)  (grc)  (he)  (hi)  (id)  (iu)  (is)  (it)  (km)  (ko)  (la)  (lt)  (lv)  (nah)  (hz)(Khoekhoe)  (no)  (non)  (oc)  (pt)  (ru)  (sgn)  (sq)  (sv)  (sw)  (tr)  (zhc)

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-18, 12:24

enricmm wrote:I've a doubt on the so called feminine of reference. How can I know when a masculine noun uses the feminine of reference or not by looking its entry in a dictionary or similar?


Hola Enric!

I'm not sure I know what you mean, masculine nouns are refered to with masculine pronouns and feminine ones with feminine pronouns. The masculine pronoun can be used as a generalised pronoun for when you don't know the gender, there is also a neutre pronoun that plays a specialised role in conjunction with the copula, but I have never heard of a feminine pronoun being used for a masculine noun. Could you give us the source you got this from?
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-18, 12:38

Ciarán12 wrote:but I have never heard of a feminine pronoun being used for a masculine noun. Could you give us the source you got this from?

Féach ar: GBC 13.21.
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-18, 13:02

linguoboy wrote:Féach ar: GBC 13.21.


"Féadann an forainmneach bheith firinscneach nó baininscneach i gcás capall, carr, cú, rásúr, claíomh, clog, leabhar agus corrfhocal eile."

"The pronoun may be either feminine or masculine in the case of capall, carr, cú, rásúr, claíomh, clog, leabhar and a few other words."

Okay, had no idea about this.

Enric, I think you can learn that off for each word you come across. Or ignore it entirely.
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-18, 13:53

Other grammarians (including Ó Siadhail, IIRC) call it the "feminine of reference". Every decent treatment of Irish grammar I've read mentions it, but as you might expect, they disagree on the details. Bád, capall, and leabhar seem to feature in every list I've seen, but otherwise it varies (probably because there's variation among dialects--and among registers and speakers as well, I wager). No dictionary I've seen explicitly lists the words involved, but something like Ó Dónall's probably illustrates its use in its copious examples sentences.
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby enricmm » 2014-06-18, 19:50

According to Ó Siadhail the nouns that use feminine of reference are:

  • Any mode of conveyance
  • Any machine
  • Any container
  • Certain animals
  • Certain garments
  • Leabhar
So the problem here is to know which animals and garments use the feminine of reference. He mentions capall, francach, caipín and geansaí as examples but that's not enough.
Native:  (ca) Native against my will:  (es)
Advanced:  (de)  (us)
Intermediate:  (zh)
Beginner:  (ga)  (ja)
Interested:  (ar)  (br)  (cy)  (egy)  (el)  (eo)  (eu)  (fo)  (fr)  (gl)  (got)  (grc)  (he)  (hi)  (id)  (iu)  (is)  (it)  (km)  (ko)  (la)  (lt)  (lv)  (nah)  (hz)(Khoekhoe)  (no)  (non)  (oc)  (pt)  (ru)  (sgn)  (sq)  (sv)  (sw)  (tr)  (zhc)

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-18, 20:38

Just so that I'm clear on this, the situation is that you can use feminine pronouns to refer to these, not that you must, right? That was my interpritation of the Chirstian Brother's entry quoted above. If that's true I would suggest you simply use the pronoun you would expect from the gender of the noun and just note whenever you come across the use of a feminine pronoun to refer to a masculine noun by a native speaker.
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Levike » 2014-06-20, 19:10

I'm not learning Irish or anything,
but I saw this sentence in the Translations sub-forum
and couldn't resist asking: What are all those words that it's sooo long?

Bhí an ghaoth fhuar á séideadh isteach san aghaidh uirthi.

The cold wind blew in her face.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-20, 19:30

Levike wrote:I'm not learning Irish or anything,
but I saw this sentence in the Translations sub-forum
and couldn't resist asking: What are all those words that it's sooo long?

You mean you want a word-by-word gloss or something?

One thing to consider is that it's not "so long" if you ignore the spelling and consider only the underlying phonemes. Compare:

/ˈvʹiːnˈɣeːˈuəraˈsʹeːdʹəsʹtʹaxsənˈəiˈirʹhi/ (24 phonemes)
/ðəˈkoːldˈwɪndˈbluːˈɪnˈhɚˈfeːs/ (20 phonemes)

But here you go anyway:

Bhí an ghaoth fhuar á séideadh isteach san aghaidh uirthi.
be.3S-PST the wind cold at.its blowing into in.the face on.3S-FEM

(It would be shorter if I'd used the simple past rather than the past progressive, but the progressive sounded more natural to me in this context.)

Questions?
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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-06-23, 19:53

linguoboy wrote:
Bhí an ghaoth fhuar á séideadh isteach san aghaidh uirthi.
be.3S-PST the wind cold at.its blowing into in.the face on.3S-FEM

(It would be shorter if I'd used the simple past rather than the past progressive, but the progressive sounded more natural to me in this context.)

Questions?


Tá ceist amháin agamsa, mura miste leat...

Would the progressive form not normally be "Bhí an ghaoth fhuar ag séideadh..."? "á séideadh" implies to me that í (an bhean atá i gceist) is the object of séideadh (which is fine, but that would mean it should be glossed as [at.her blowing] and not [at.its blowing]). Also, is the verb here "séid ar" or just "séid"? If it's just "séid", what is the "uirthi" about?
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