Moderator:kevin
księżycowy wrote:I have more than one physical copy of TY Irish, one from 1962 (hardcover), and one from 1987 (softcover). My question comes about because of two things:
Firstly, David Smith here (and surely other places as well) says that he has used the 1987 version during the process of re-typesetting the book in order to provide the "corrections" that edition provides.
księżycowy wrote:My question is this: what is the nature of the changes between the different versions? Are they actual corrections, or are they just stylistic changes or something of the like?
księżycowy wrote:For example, here is a question I posted in the Answer-ask game recently:
Cá dtaoibhuil tú[*] ag dul ar do lá saoire-se anois?
księżycowy wrote:Theoretically lá would be lented (if 'l' could be that is), but what about saoire?
księżycowy wrote:If I where to use the emphatic particle -sa/se (like I tried to ), where would it go? On lá? On saoire? Or neither?
księżycowy wrote:Also, for "blue sky", I'm hoping that like English "blue" in this case would be an adjective. Thus translating to an spéir gorm.
linguoboy wrote:I'm not seeing that in the excerpt you posted.
Having used first the softcover and then switching to the hardcover, I can't say as I noticed any differences at all. So I wouldn't worry.
Only if you were dealing with a so-called "functional genitive", which you're not in this case. Lenition is generally not "transitive" (though the declination of attributive adjectives may give that impression).
It may depend on how tightly the NP is constituted. Since lá saoire is a loose compound, I would put it after saoire. GnaG includes the example ár dtrí cinn-ne where the NP consists of numeral plus noun and O Donaill has a mhac mórsan and m’iníon ógsa with a following adjective but mo chuidse den obair where the modifier is a prepositional phrase.
Except spéir is feminine so it's an spéir ghorm.
Cá dtaoibhuil tú[*] ag dul ar do lá saoire-se anois?
Other (Munster) possibilities, in decreasing order of frequency, would be bhuileann tú and bhuilir. *dtaoi does not exist in any case. The older stem of the verb is atáim, which is preserved as a relative form, and this prevents any sort of lenition in the Standard (though it occurs in Munster dialects, particularly those of Kerry) and any form of eclipsis (which is purely theoretical, since atáim has a full set of dependent forms).
księżycowy wrote:linguoboy wrote:I'm not seeing that in the excerpt you posted.
It's the first sentence or two of the description. I can't access the site on my work computer, but I be happy to quote it when I get home. I can also post pictures of the Lesson I referenced as well.
Is garraí used much now-a-days? It seems like it's a synonym to gairdín.
księżycowy wrote:Interesting. So there could be a case where the emphatic particle comes in the middle of the NP?
księżycowy wrote:Right. For some reason I was thinking lenition occured with masculine nouns.
księżycowy wrote:I was thinking more simply: 2 components. Would it not happen in a NP consisting of 2 parts?
księżycowy wrote:Cad fá?
EDIT: Oh, for "why"? If memory doesn't fail me, from de Bhaldraithe.
linguoboy wrote:AFAIK, it's not used in West Cork at all. It may even be strictly literary. In any case, the usual WC is cad'na thaobh, pronounced as if cannathaobh (i.e. primary stress on the final syllable and secondary stress on the first leading to preservation of the vowel).
księżycowy wrote:I have a feeling I completely fucked up the second half of this sentence. But curiousity makes me want to ask:
Cá rabhais ag déiradh an inné ag socrú sin?
Itś suppose to to ask, "what were you doing yesterday before bed?"
I mean, how am I suppose to learn Munster usages short of reading a bunch of literature in it, or talk to people and ask them?
linguoboy wrote:Um...kinda?
1. Cá is "where", not "what". (That would be cad.)
2. I wouldn't use socraím to mean simply "do"; use deinim.
3. Inné is an adverb (etymologically i ndé, where dé is the same archaic dative of dia used in the names of days of the week). If you want to nominalise it, you need to add an lá, e.g. ag deireadh an lae inné "at the end of the day yesterday".
4. Adverbial phrases like that normally come last in the sentence. The progressive construction is a tight one in any case and normally doesn't allow any intervening complements.
5. Objects with the verbal noun are a whole nother can of worms. I can explain if you want, but you'd be better off just using the simple past for now.
For basic function words like this, you can (a) use the table of contents in TYI or (b) consult the relevant pages in GnaG. (The author is very good about noting dialectal usages where appropriate.)
linguoboy wrote:
Cad (é) a dheinis?
is simply a much easier construction than:
Cad bhí á dhéanamh agat?
księżycowy wrote:1. Cá is "where", not "what". (That would be cad.)
My mistake. I'll get these question words down eventually.
księżycowy wrote:2. I wouldn't use socraím to mean simply "do"; use deinim.
I was attempting to use socrú to mean something to the effect of "sleep", not 'do.' I apparently mispelled deinadh.
księżycowy wrote:3. Inné is an adverb (etymologically i ndé, where dé is the same archaic dative of dia used in the names of days of the week). If you want to nominalise it, you need to add an lá, e.g. ag deireadh an lae inné "at the end of the day yesterday".
Good to know. I looked it up in the back of TYI, but didn see much grammar/usage information for the entry.
księżycowy wrote:4. Adverbial phrases like that normally come last in the sentence. The progressive construction is a tight one in any case and normally doesn't allow any intervening complements.
Also very good to know.
księżycowy wrote:5. Objects with the verbal noun are a whole nother can of worms. I can explain if you want, but you'd be better off just using the simple past for now.
I think I have enough troubles at the moment. But I hope that TYI goes over this, and thus Iĺl get your explanation then.
księżycowy wrote:For basic function words like this, you can (a) use the table of contents in TYI or (b) consult the relevant pages in GnaG. (The author is very good about noting dialectal usages where appropriate.)
That was a more generalized rant, but I do tend to reference the back of TYI after looking a word up in a dictionary or the like, to make sure that form is used in Munster.
linguoboy wrote:There is no *deinadh. (Caol le caol is leathan le leathan!) If you want the verbal noun of deinim, you need to use a different ending (-amh) and a different stem (déan, also used for future and conditional).
I see now what happened with socrú. The verb socraím is derived from socair meaning "level"[*] or "easy", so the verb means "settle" both in the more literal sense of "come/put to rest" and in the more metaphorical sense of "arrange", "deal with". I thought you meant the latter because I've never seen anyone use socrú in reference to sleep (codladh) or going to bed (dul a luí).
It does not. There is, however, a good explanation in GnaG.
and even then it's not much of a guide, because the corpus is so small
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