Mapudungun

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Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-23, 7:56

There doesn't seem to be a topic for this language yet, even though I know there's at least one UniLanger besides me who's interested in it! (Actually, I'm kinda thinking of starting a bunch of topics for various languages. I mean, Central and South America are really linguistically diverse, and that diversity isn't represented at all here on UL. I guess no one actually wants to struggle through all those languages :P).

Anyway, so let's start with the Wikipedia article for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapuche_language

It has a number of loanwords from various languages, including Spanish, Quechua, and (the now extinct language, formerly spoken in the Pampas of Argentina) Puelche a.k.a. (among other names) Gününa Yajüch. (<ü> = [ɨ]). See here.

I think the name of this language is pronounced [mapuθũˈŋũn].

księżycowy

Re: Mapudungun

Postby księżycowy » 2014-01-23, 12:54

vijayjohn wrote:There doesn't seem to be a topic for this language yet, even though I know there's at least one UniLanger besides me who's interested in it! (Actually, I'm kinda thinking of starting a bunch of topics for various languages. I mean, Central and South America are really linguistically diverse, and that diversity isn't represented at all here on UL. I guess no one actually wants to struggle through all those languages :P).
Hey! While I'm not all that interested in Mapudungun, I am interested in a few Central and South American languages! :evil: :lol:

My biggest two problems at the moment are needing to brush up some stuff for my studies, and not knowing Spanish.

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-24, 1:10

księżycowy wrote:Hey! While I'm not all that interested in Mapudungun, I am interested in a few Central and South American languages! :evil: :lol:

Oh, really? Which ones? :)

My biggest two problems at the moment are needing to brush up some stuff for my studies,

What kind of stuff? Like, do you mean languages or something else? (And if you mean languages, then again, which ones? :lol:)

and not knowing Spanish.

Well, I know Spanish, so maybe I can help you there. :D

księżycowy

Re: Mapudungun

Postby księżycowy » 2014-01-24, 12:32

Quechua, Aymara, Nahuatl, Mayan (Kaqchikel, Tzotzil), Zapotec, Ticuna, random languages of the Amazon, Guarani, Kuna, and I suppose if I could get access to some lessons that are in Spanish there would be more to add.

As for the stuff holding me back, it's both my class work in general, and my need to brush up on some French and German. Oh, and I suppose I should keep some Hebrew going. That seems like enough work for now, no? :wink:

And just for the record, I didn't mean to steal your thread. I just had to comment there. :P

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-24, 17:02

No worries about stealing (or not stealing :lol:) my thread! I'm always glad when I open a thread and somebody actually says something. :D

That's cool that you want to learn all those languages! I don't think I'd even heard of Ticuna until now. There's also a pretty nice-looking Spanish teaching grammar for Tucano, complete with audio files, available from SIL! I started using it and will probably go back to it. Maybe when the weather gets warmer or something. :lol: Also, which variety of Zapotec are you interested in, do you know?

As for what's holding you back...well, I guess I can't help with your class work, and my Hebrew utterly sucks. :lol: But I should be able to help you brush up on French and German! (I'd say I'm trying to do that as well).

księżycowy

Re: Mapudungun

Postby księżycowy » 2014-01-24, 18:25

There are a ton of SIL materials that look great! That is part of the reason that I wish I knew some Spanish. There was also an awesome pdf textbook for Mixe that was in Spanish I wish I could use. I'm not even sure I saved the pdf.

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-04, 5:55

I think Mapudungun is quite interesting. It has polypersonal verbs and an absolutive-ergative system like Basque, and is a language isolate (or "continuum isolate", if such a thing exists, and depending on who you ask).

That being said, I have yet to be enthusiastic enough to commit to learning it. I doubt I ever will, since I have no cultural affinity to the Mapuche, so I don't think I ever would be devoted enough to learn it. But it's cool to read about!
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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-08, 22:35

Great! Then maybe I'll finally post something on it here later today. (Well, I'm hoping to, anyway).

But if you're not feeling up to doing Mapudungun...what do you say to a bit of Yucatec Maya? :D

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-09, 22:51

OK, finally posting something about Mapudungun. :) According to Wikipedia's description of its phonology, Mapudungun has six phonemic vowels, and /ɨ/ is pronounced [ə] when unstressed. One thing they claim is particularly interesting is that Mapudungun contrasts the dentals /t̪ n̪ l̪/ with their alveolar counterparts /t n l/. In fact, I'm pretty sure I know of a variety of Malayalam that has exactly the same contrast: the Ernad variety, spoken in northeastern Kerala. (Other varieties of Malayalam, such as my own, do not have a dental lateral contrasting with its alveolar counterpart; however, they do have the other two dental/alveolar distinctions. Since the lateral contrast does not exist in my variety, though, I'm not sure whether I can really make that distinction. I guess I'll just try. What else can I do? :lol:).

I've also learned a little bit of Mapudungun from this Wikibook, which uses the Raguileo alphabet. I think that alphabet is a bit confusing (for learners) if it doesn't really distinguish all the phonemes...but whatever, I guess. :P At least, I know from this now that [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi] means 'hello' and that [tʃumˈlejmi] means 'how are you?'. There's also this from Wikiversity, which uses the Unified alphabet and has better explanations at least for the first lesson.

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-23, 6:42

Oh wow, this is really interesting. So I just learned where [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi] comes from. [ˈmaɻi] in Mapudungun actually means 'ten'. The word for 'hi' is [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi] apparently because to greet someone, you're supposed to wave all ten fingers - or at least, you use your fingers (and hands), and there are ten fingers on both of your hands combined.

I learned that from this video. After [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi], [ˈmapu], [tʃe], and [θuˈŋun], it already started getting into vocabulary I'm not familiar with (and didn't touch on vocabulary I am familiar with yet). The video is all in Chilean Spanish, a variety of Spanish that I'm not used to hearing and that's slightly harder for me to follow than the Mexican Spanish I'm much more accustomed to (just because I can't get over how it keeps sounding a bit weird), and that's why I can't really follow everything they're saying or give a complete translation. I've barely been through like 6 minutes of this video. Still, here it is anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVr1ZuR3_jQ

I'm also starting to figure out where exactly [tʃumˈlejmi] comes from. [ˈejmi] means 'you (singular)', but there is also a second person dual pronoun [ˈejmu] as well as a second person plural pronoun [ejˈmɨ̃n].

OK, now I've figured out the rest of that word, too. It turns out that [tʃum] means 'how' and -[le] is the progressive suffix. There is no overt marker for present tense in Mapudungun. I got that information from this blog post and the very first page of this paper, in that order.

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-03-13, 6:48

[ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi]! [tʃumlejˈmɨ̃n]? :D

'I'm fine' in Mapudungun is apparently [kɨ̃meˈlẽn]. According to the Wikibook, if you want to ask 'how about you?' you say "[ˈejmi kaj]?" According to the Wikiversity book, [kaj] is an "interrogative form to ask about something already said."

'Me, too' is [ˈĩɲtʃe kaˈfej]. [ˈĩɲtʃe] is the first person singular pronoun (i.e. it means 'I' or 'me'), and [kaˈfej] means 'also' or 'too'.

Finally, [ˈpẽɲi] means 'brother', in both the literal and figurative senses, but apparently, it can only be used by men. When women are addressing anyone as a "brother" or "sister" (and apparently when men are similarly addressing women, i.e. in all other cases), the word that must be used instead is [lãmˈŋjẽn]. (Some speakers say [lãˈmwẽn] instead, as the video I posted last time indicates).

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-04-04, 1:28

Tried to review this vocabulary as well. [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi] can only be used in the morning or the afternoon; in the evening, you say [pun̪ maj]. [pun̪] means 'night' (or 'evening', I guess), and [maj] seems to mean various things (including 'yes'), but in this context, it just means 'good'. :lol:

[tʃẽm ˈpĩmi] means 'what did you say?' [tʃẽm] means 'what', and [ˈpĩmi] means 'you say' or 'you said', i.e. the 2SG realis form of the verb [pĩn] 'to say'. During the day, apparently, the word for 'goodbye' is [pewkaˈʎal].

Note also that the Wikiversity book uses [lãmˈŋẽn] instead of either [lãmˈŋjẽn] or [lãˈmwẽn].

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-22, 2:18

OK, so now that I've covered those words in the Wikibooks book, there's almost nothing left, just a few single words (like names of colors or numbers) and like four short sample sentences/phrases. I guess I'll just switch over to the Wikiversity book now.

So, in that book, instead of [tʃumˈlejmi] 'how are you?' they say [kɨ̃melkaˈlejmi], which literally means 'are you OK now?'. I wonder what the [ka] part means. Could it mean 'now'?

Nah, that's probably what they're conveying with the progressive aspect suffix -[le]. But what does it mean, then? And what does the [ẽn] in [kɨ̃meˈlẽn] (which, as I mentioned earlier, means 'I'm fine') mean?

Oh, OK. Going back to this blog post, I now see that [kɨ̃ˈmẽn] means 'good', the -[le] is just the progressive marker again, and I think it's fair to say the -[n] is an incorporated 1SG pronoun.

It didn't seem to explain the -[lka] in [kɨ̃melkaˈlejmi], but the other source I listed before (this paper) does explain it as a causative suffix. So I guess it's sort of like 'are you doing good?'. :P

[ka], however, means 'and' or 'also', so [ˈĩɲtʃe ka kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn] basically means 'I'm fine, too' (or 'I'm doing good, too' :P).

This video (the first part of the fourth lesson of that Chilean video I posted the first lesson for earlier, where they were teaching Mapudungun) uses the word [kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn] rather than [kɨ̃meˈlẽn]. Note that they just say "[ˈejmi]?" instead of "[ˈejmi kaj]?" and [ka kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn] instead of [ˈĩɲtʃe ka kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0gMDvIznMk
And their second lesson, starting around 3:24 and ending around 7:09, goes over some of the words that I've covered here and also a few more that are covered in that first lesson in the Wikiversity book. We've already seen [maj] before in the expression [pun̪ maj], where it meant 'good'. (This video also seems to clarify, by the way, that [pun̪ maj] means both 'good evening' and 'good night'). I also mentioned that [maj] means 'yes', and they cover that in this video, too. In addition, there's the word [feˈlej], which basically means 'OK'. It can be used with [maj], so you can say [feˈlej maj] like they do at the end of that dialog in the first lesson of the Wikiversity book:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf0l30YGLCQ

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-23, 7:40

OK, I guess there isn't a whole lot to review here anyway, but I might as well review whatever I have posted here anyway (all in IPA, but with punctuation). :D

good day = [ˈmaɻi ˈmaɻi]
ten = [ˈmaɻi]
earth, land = [ˈmapu]
people = [tʃe]
language = [θuˈŋun]
how = [tʃum]
-ing = -[le]
you = [ˈejmi]
both of you = [ˈejmu]
y'all = [ejˈmɨ̃n]
good = [kɨ̃ˈmẽn]
How are you/both of you/y'all? = [tʃumˈlejmi]/[tʃumˈlejmu]/[tʃumlejˈmɨ̃n]?
Are you OK now? = [kɨ̃melkaˈlejmi]?
I'm fine = [kɨ̃meˈlẽn] or [kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn]
(How about) you? = [ˈejmi] ([kaj])?
"interrogative form to ask about something already said" = [kaj]
I/me = [ˈĩɲtʃe]
also/too = [kaˈfej] or just [ka]
Me, too = [ˈĩɲtʃe kaˈfej]
I'm fine, too = ([ˈĩɲtʃe]) [ka kɨ̃melkaˈlẽn]
Man's (figurative, or perhaps literal) brother = [ˈpẽɲi]
Any other (figurative, or perhaps literal) sibling = [lãmˈŋjẽn] (in some dialects, [lãˈmwẽn], and according to the Wikibook, [lãmˈŋẽn])
Night (or evening?) = [pun̪]
yes, good, etc. :P = [maj]
Good evening/night = [pun̪ maj]
what = [tʃẽm]
to say = [pĩn]
you say/said = [ˈpĩmi]
What did you say? = [tʃẽm ˈpĩmi]
OK = [feˈlej]

OK, so apparently, [ˈĩɲtʃe ɲi ɨj ta] means 'my name is'. [ɨj] clearly means 'name', but I don't understand what [ɲi] or [ta] means.

Ah, so [ɲi] in Mapudungun is a possessive pronoun that's used both for 1SG and for 3rd person! That's interesting. :D So I guess [ˈĩɲtʃe ɲi] specifies that the meaning is 'my'. Now what's [ta]?

Oh OK, the blog explains it. It's used to connect nouns predicatively; the verb for 'to be' is apparently not used for that purpose, at least in simple sentences...Huh. :hmm: This language is suddenly getting pretty intriguing! :lol: But anyway, there we go: [ˈĩɲtʃe ɲi ɨj ta].

And then [ĩˈnej pĩˈŋejmi ãm] means 'what's your name?'. [ĩˈnej] or [ĩˈɲej] means 'who'; [pĩˈŋejmi] literally means 'you are called' or 'it is said [to you]' but in this case means 'you are named'. [ãm] is apparently an interrogative particle.

Finally, one more way to say 'my name is' is [ˈĩɲtʃe ta]...[pĩˈŋẽn], i.e. "I am called..."

To review that new vocab:
What's your name? = [ĩˈnej pĩˈŋejmi ãm]?
who = [ĩˈnej] or [ĩˈɲej]
you're called/it's said to you = [pĩˈŋejmi]
My name is = [ˈĩɲtʃe ɲi ɨj ta]
my/his/her/its/their = [ɲi]
my = [ˈĩɲtʃe ɲi]
name = [ɨj]
(particle for connecting nouns in predicate) = [ta]
I am called = [ˈĩɲtʃe ta]...[pĩˈŋẽn]
I'm called (or 'it's said to me'?) = [pĩˈŋẽn]

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-23, 0:10

OK, I didn't manage to remember like any of the new vocabulary I posted in the last lesson. :P However, just now, I did manage to find a video from the AmulZugun course (which is the YouTube course all the videos I've posted so far in this thread). Apart from the part from 8:30 to 12:15, everything in this video is stuff that I've covered in this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eBY_ucwgus
So this is pretty useful for reviewing things like how to ask for somebody's name. They actually use the emphatic form (when stating their names in the dialog) but without using [ta], so that's kind of interesting. They also don't use the particle [am].

Oh man, I better not introduce much new vocabulary this time! :lol: I still need to remember the old stuff! Ahhhh!! :P

Maybe I'll just cover the last three "alternative forms" at the bottom of the first Wikiversity lesson. I don't really expect to remember these forms next time, but I think I'll put spoiler alerts for them anyway:

I'm ill = [wedaˈlen]
I'm sick = [kɨtʂaŋkɨˈlen]
So so = [feˈlen feˈlen]

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-12-12, 6:14

So now I'm moving on to lesson 2 of the Wikiversity series, and it has quite a bit of new vocabulary! I wonder whether I should go through all of it now or try to slow down here...Maybe I'll try slowing down. After all, I haven't covered all that much new vocabulary in most of the other languages I'm learning from scratch. :P

So here are a few new words:
everything = [kom]
(plural marker for animate nouns) = [pu]
everybody = [kom pu tʃe]
sit down = [anəˈmɨn]

I was thinking of also including the new words from the next sentence in the dialog in that lesson, i.e. [fatʃiˈan̪t̪ə ta ˈkiɲe we kolekiˈal mɨˈlej] 'today we have a new student'. Pretty much every word in that sentence is new for me. :lol: But there's a complication, since the first word is a compound word (or so it seems) meaning literally 'this day', and I'm too lazy right now to go and look up how that word can be broken down into morphemes. :lol:

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-25, 18:43

So apparently, 'today' is made up of (at least) three morphemes: [fa]-[t͡ʃi]-[ˈan̪t̪ə]. [fa] or [ˈtɨfa] (usually, it occurs with that prefixed [tɨ], which the blog says is a particle) is a demonstrative pronoun that "marks a place that is close to the place the conversation takes place," according to the blog post I linked to earlier. [t͡ʃi], according to this post (and perhaps the other one), is a particle makes it into an adjective. So I guess that means [ˈan̪t̪ə] means 'day'. I'm also guessing [kolekiˈal] 'student' is a loanword from Spanish (< colegio? Colegial?). Indeed, the Spanish version of the same lesson uses "colegial" (among a few other options) as a translation.

...You know what? I'll let that be what I learned today. :lol:

this (pronoun marking place near where conversation occurs) = [fa] or (apparently more often, in isolation) [ˈtɨfa]
this (adj) = [ˈfat͡ʃi] or [təˈfat͡ʃi]
day(?) = [ˈan̪t̪ə]
today = [fat͡ʃiˈan̪t̪ə]
one = [ˈkiɲe]
new = [we]
student = [kolekiˈal]
there is = [məˈlej]
Today, we have a new student. = [fatʃiˈan̪t̪ə ta ˈkiɲe we kolekiˈal məˈlej]

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-03-14, 7:51

You know what? I think this time, I'll just do the numerals from 1 to 10, because one of them comes up in the Wikiversity lesson anyway (the last lesson I mentioned from that wikibook. Well, actually, two of them come up, but we already talked about the word for 'one'). :P

Wow, OK, I just came up with this really dumb mnemonic for trying to remember these numerals. It goes something like: "Gimme a book, color, mail [i.e. give me a (coloring?) book, color it, then mail it]! He catch you, got you, regulate(???)!" :lol: :silly: And then 'eight' looks kind of like the Cusco Quechua word for 'eight'(! I mean, I don't seriously suspect they're related or anything, but they bear enough of a coincidental resemblance that it might help it stick in my memory) and even more like a word for 'river' in Malayalam. Okay. And 'nine' is the word they use in the Wikiversity lesson, and it sounds a lot like the Quechua word for 'family'.

1 [ˈkiɲe]
2 [ˈepu]
3 [ˈkɨla]
4 [ˈmeli]
5 [ˈket͡ʃu]
6 [ˈkaju]
7 [ˈɻeɣle]
8 [ˈpuɻa]
9 [ˈajʎa]

And of course we've already covered 10, too!

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-26, 3:56

Another phrase they have in this Wikiversity lesson is "[t͡ʃew tuˈwimi am]?" meaning 'where do you come from?'. [t͡ʃew] means 'where' or 'from where', and [tuˈwimi] means something like 'you come out'. The response is [eˈpul lof tuˈwɨn] 'I come from the Epul community'. [lof] is a Mapuche community, and [tuˈwɨn] is the first singular equivalent of [tuˈwimi]. In the last video lesson I posted, they instead use the word that I guess means 'to come' and say [kuˈpajmi] and [kuˈpan] (instead of [tuˈwimi] and [tuˈwɨn] respectively).

Before that, in the Wikiversity lesson, they also show how to talk about ages: [tunˈten tʂiˈpantu niˈejmi]? 'how old are you?' and [ˈajʎa tʂiˈpantu niˈen] 'I'm nine years old'. [tunˈten] means 'how much/many', [tʂiˈpantu] means 'year(s)', [niˈejmi] means 'you have', and of course, [niˈen] means 'I have'.

I come out (from) = [tuˈwɨn]
You come out (from) = [tuˈwimi]
I come = [kuˈpan]
You come = [kuˈpajmi]
(from) where = [t͡ʃew]
Mapuche community = [lof]
how much/many = [tunˈten]
year = [tʂiˈpantu]
I have = [niˈen]
You have = [niˈejmi]

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Re: Mapudungun

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-10-20, 5:16

Here's the rest of the vocabulary from that Wikiversity lesson and the last video I posted from AmulZungun, as well as the video for lessons 1 and 2 of that same series. I have now posted the video for lesson 1 below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVr1ZuR3_jQ
I arrive(d) = [aˈkun]
You arrive(d) = [aˈkujmi]
when = [t͡ʃuˈmɨl]
yesterday = [ˈwija]
then; well, OK = [fejˈmew]
now = [ˈfewla]
others = [ˈkake]
children, lit. 'small people' = [pit͡ʃiˈket͡ʃe]
boy = [pit͡ʃiˈwentʂu] or, for some speakers, [ˈkempu]
girl = [pit͡ʃiˈθomo] or, for some speakers, [maˈlen]
man = [ˈwentʂu]
older woman = [paˈpaj]
older man = [t͡ʃaˈt͡ʃaj]
thank you = [t͡ʃaltuˈmaj]

Next time, I can get part of my vocabulary from lesson 1 of Wikiversity, which has the unexplained phrase for 'let's go together!'.


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