Iroquoian Languages

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Formiko
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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-25, 21:58

księżycowy wrote:Am I correct in assuming that the 2nd person prefix ’se-’ is the correct one to use for a stem beginning with ’ts.’ I know that the ’se-’ form is used for a stem beginning with ’t’ so I want to say that my assumption is correct. Formiko, anyone else, able to help?

I can't think of any verbs that begin w/ ts off the top of my head,
but it depends on the stem. (which word were you thinking of?)
There is A-stem, C-Stem, I-stem, En-stem and On stem
I come (intransitie E stem) take'
you come sake'
he comes rake'


I cry tekahshenthos (A -stem)
you cry sekahshenthos
they cry ronkahshenthos

You have to learn the stem, but knowing just the consonant will get you far.
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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-25, 22:04

They give the example of -tsénhaiens (to be a councilor) in the teaching grammar. Unfortunately they don’t use it for an example of the second person, only first person. Which is:
Ktsénhaiens - I am a councilor.
A bit of an odd example I suppose . . .

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-25, 22:42

księżycowy wrote:They give the example of -tsénhaiens (to be a councilor) in the teaching grammar. Unfortunately they don’t use it for an example of the second person, only first person. Which is:
Ktsénhaiens - I am a councilor.
A bit of an odd example I suppose . . .

My dic has ratsitsénhayens for counselor. Not a common word, but it seems like it's a C-stem word, so it would be Stsenhayens
Here's the conjugation

I ktsenhayens
you stsenhayens
he ratsenhayens
she yetsenhayens
it katsenhayens

we (you and me) tenitsenhayens

you (pl) sewatsenhayens
they (men) ratitsenhayens
they (women) kontitsenhayens

You realize that en is pronounced like the second uh in uhuh
on is like bon in French
So a better way to right you're a counselor would be
stsųhayųs or in the Cherokee system, it would be stsvhayvs
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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-25, 22:58

Formiko wrote:My dic has ratsitsénhayens for counselor. Not a common word, but it seems like it's a C-stem word, so it would be Stsenhayens

Interesting, thanks.

You realize that en is pronounced like the second uh in uhuh
on is like bon in French
So a better way to right you're a counselor would be
stsųhayųs or in the Cherokee system, it would be stsvhayvs

Yes, I know that 'en' and 'on' in Mohawk are nasalized vowels. I'm actually lucky enough to have the audio cds for the teaching grammar! :D
Thanks for the help. I'm sure I'll ask for more soon enough.

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-26, 11:45

Hey Formiko, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind looking over the dialog I made in my blog. Just want to make sure I didn't make any mistakes.

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-27, 6:29

księżycowy wrote:Hey Formiko, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind looking over the dialog I made in my blog. Just want to make sure I didn't make any mistakes.

It wouldn't let me reply, so I'm replying here.
Most of the dialog looks fine, but I use Skennen for both hello and goodbye (peace) and Yó for "See ya"
I have no idea what the root is for -entóhrha but if you're doing it correctly, it's c-root.Plus, 'I'm good' is yoyanerátye' (you seem to be using on old orthography). Ikstá' (great!)
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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-27, 10:57

Formiko wrote:It wouldn't let me reply, so I'm replying here.
Most of the dialog looks fine, but I use Skennen for both hello and goodbye (peace) and Yó for "See ya"

Yes, I remember seeing the shortened forms in Let's Speak Mohawk, I just wanted to use the forms I learned through the Teaching Grammar.
I have no idea what the root is for -entóhrha but if you're doing it correctly, it's c-root.

I believe that the root, at least according the Teaching Grammar, is what I put. As in: -entohrha. But I'm obviously not sure. Just going off what they had in the book.
Plus, 'I'm good' is yoyanerátye' (you seem to be using on old orthography). Ikstá' (great!)

Well actually, as far as I know, that is the current orthography, unless they changed it again. The orthography in the Teaching Grammar is current as to the 1993 standard. 2007 is when they actually went through and updated the old orthography. Though I do notice that the spelling for the Teaching Grammar and Let's Speak Mohawk is different, and yet they both seem to be post-1993 changes. Maybe different dialects/spellings?

Anyway, thanks for the help!

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-27, 21:30

księżycowy wrote:Well actually, as far as I know, that is the current orthography, unless they changed it again. The orthography in the Teaching Grammar is current as to the 1993 standard. 2007 is when they actually went through and updated the old orthography. Though I do notice that the spelling for the Teaching Grammar and Let's Speak Mohawk is different, and yet they both seem to be post-1993 changes. Maybe different dialects/spellings?

Anyway, thanks for the help!


Which book are you using? I may have it in my collection, although if it's new I probably don't. Most of the Mohawk books I have are theses or were pre-1970
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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-27, 22:59

I'm using Mohawk: A Teaching Grammar by Deering and Delisle. It's been newly updated, like I said above.

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-10-29, 20:35

Yes! I just got the Cayuga Teaching Grammar! Can't wait to get into it (after I'm done with Mohawk of course)!

now I'm just waiting on the Mohawk 'dictionary' I ordered!

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Re: Iroquoian languages

Postby księżycowy » 2010-11-03, 20:22

Me and some friends have started a Mohawk study group! We haven’t actually met yet (for studying Mohawk anyway), but I’m looking forward to it. Not sure if the others will stick through it as I intend to, but it should be interesting.

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Re: Mohawk

Postby księżycowy » 2010-11-05, 11:11

I've been meaning to ask you Formiko, how much Mohawk should I be able to kearn from the Mohawk: Teaching Grammar? I'm figuring around A2-B1
(Assuming we're both using the same scale: A1=beginner --> to --> C3=Native speaker)

That is if you have experience with the book.

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Re: Mohawk

Postby Formiko » 2010-11-05, 22:42

księżycowy wrote:I've been meaning to ask you Formiko, how much Mohawk should I be able to kearn from the Mohawk: Teaching Grammar? I'm figuring around A2-B1
(Assuming we're both using the same scale: A1=beginner --> to --> C3=Native speaker)

That is if you have experience with the book.


Yes, but without real speakers you'll never get out of A level, because you'll will have to be able to understand speakers as well. Native languages are different in that there is almost no written literature (besides the Bible) so you can't have a passive reading knowledge, which makes things harder. For example, I can read almost anything in German (I'm reading Der lezte Zeuge by Rochus Misch and it's VERY difficult, that's why I said almost anything.), but creating grammatically correct sentences is my weak point. (Ask anyone in the German forum ;) ), but with Mohawk, you can't have a passive knowledge (unless you live on the rez). I learned Cherokee from my grandmother, who spoke it to me every summer I stayed with her for almost 10 years), but I can't read it well at all. Although my knowledge of NDN languages is different, because it's more of an academic knowledge. I can read and write sentences, but that doesn't suit me in the real world ;) Although I can speak Navajo to impress tribal elders, but since Tlingit is so difficult, I might as well be a rank newbie. :(
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Re: Mohawk

Postby księżycowy » 2010-11-05, 23:10

Formiko wrote:Yes, but without real speakers you'll never get out of A level, because you'll will have to be able to understand speakers as well. Native languages are different in that there is almost no written literature (besides the Bible) so you can't have a passive reading knowledge, which makes things harder. For example, I can read almost anything in German (I'm reading Der lezte Zeuge by Rochus Misch and it's VERY difficult, that's why I said almost anything.), but creating grammatically correct sentences is my weak point. (Ask anyone in the German forum ;) ), but with Mohawk, you can't have a passive knowledge (unless you live on the rez). I learned Cherokee from my grandmother, who spoke it to me every summer I stayed with her for almost 10 years), but I can't read it well at all. Although my knowledge of NDN languages is different, because it's more of an academic knowledge. I can read and write sentences, but that doesn't suit me in the real world ;) Although I can speak Navajo to impress tribal elders, but since Tlingit is so difficult, I might as well be a rank newbie. :(

Saddly that's the way it goes with a lot of NDN languages too. There are some published readers, like the one I just found for Shoshoni, but even those don't get you too far. These languages just don't have the written tradition the European (and other) languages have. There aren't many (if any) novels, newspapers, ect in any NDN languages. It really is sad!

At least with my Iroquoian languages, I live in the right place! As there are quite a few reservations around NY! So I do have the potential to speak with native speakers!

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Re: Mohawk

Postby Formiko » 2010-11-06, 2:19

księżycowy wrote:
At least with my Iroquoian languages, I live in the right place! As there are quite a few reservations around NY! So I do have the potential to speak with native speakers!


That's why I think you'll be ok. ;) NDN languages are primarily oral, with most stories retold be elders, and sadly that's ending too :(
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Re: Mohawk

Postby Nero » 2010-11-06, 4:49

Maybe the New Yorkers (the two moderators and Formiko) could take a trip north one day in real life and report back on the language status :lol:
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Re: Mohawk

Postby Formiko » 2010-11-06, 8:23

Nero wrote:Maybe the New Yorkers (the two moderators and Formiko) could take a trip north one day in real life and report back on the language status :lol:

I would love to, but I live about 8 hours away. I live near Bergen County, NJ so I can't just take a stroll through Mohawk country :(
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Re: Mohawk

Postby księżycowy » 2010-11-06, 10:10

Formiko wrote:
Nero wrote:Maybe the New Yorkers (the two moderators and Formiko) could take a trip north one day in real life and report back on the language status :lol:

I would love to, but I live about 8 hours away. I live near Bergen County, NJ so I can't just take a stroll through Mohawk country :(

Damn! I was starting to pack too! :lol:
Though in a serious light, that would be interesting . . . :hmm:

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Re: Mohawk

Postby Nero » 2010-11-06, 15:30

I'd probably do it - it's cheaper than the plane ticket to North Dakota :lol:
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Re: Mohawk

Postby księżycowy » 2010-11-06, 16:18

Nero wrote:I'd probably do it - it's cheaper than the plane ticket to North Dakota :lol:

Indeed it is.


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