ᏣᎳᎩ / Cherokee

Mol_Bolom
Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-18, 5:55

Formiko wrote:juweji sigwa hawiyahno jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.


This sentence has one of the most confusing usages of a suffix that I've seen off and on. The placement of -hno.

With inquisitives, the suffix always goes on the first word.

sikwas hawiya tsaduli? Do you want Pork/bacon?

Even the suffix -gwu/gwv is used the same way...

anita'ligwu gitli unigisvi. It was only two dogs that ate it.

However, with -hno, it comes after the second word? Is -hno a special case when it comes to multiple words, or is it a dialectual thing? If it's a dialectual thing, then it would go that in certain dialects my two sentences thus would be "sikwa hawiyas tsaduli" and "anita'li gitligwu unigisvi", and thus Formiko's sentence would be "juweyi sikwahno hawiya tsigisgvi" in the dialect that I know.

AAAAAAAARGH...Forgot where I was going with this...Anyway, hopefully it made enough sense...

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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-06-18, 8:33

How can I access ᏩᏯᏩᏯ's dropbox? Would Wolf² be a better name? ;)
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-18, 11:53

Formiko wrote:How can I access ᏩᏯᏩᏯ's dropbox? Would Wolf² be a better name? ;)


a) Join dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/referrals/NTE3MDI1NDI5

b) Accept my shared folder invite in your inbox (or spambox).

And the "ᏩᏯᏩᏯ" is a result of Unilang arguing with the me about length of username. :)

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-18, 12:36

Formiko wrote:That's funny, because I use ᎠᎴ for almost everything. (It's probably wrong as heck, but it's common enough) Let's see
juweji ale sigwa hawiya jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
juweji sigwa hawiyahno jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
The old folks will always use -hno, while the younger generation will use ale after English.


My information is based solely on what is in Durbin Feeling p343, I am now fixing to look in Beginning Cherokee to see what she says.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-18, 13:04

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
Formiko wrote:That's funny, because I use ᎠᎴ for almost everything. (It's probably wrong as heck, but it's common enough) Let's see
juweji ale sigwa hawiya jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
juweji sigwa hawiyahno jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
The old folks will always use -hno, while the younger generation will use ale after English.


My information is based solely on what is in Durbin Feeling p343, I am now fixing to look in Beginning Cherokee to see what she says.


not much. pg35:
a'le': and, or, but

That's the end of the discussion on 'ale'. :hmm:

The general lack of discussion on 'ale' in Beginning Cherokee makes me defer to Durbin Feeling as treating 'ale' as 'and', using '-le yigi' as 'or', and 'asesgini' as 'but'.

He also states the meaning '-hno' as 'and', but by inference from sentence structure, I think a closer English approximate is probably 'also'.

I sometimes think the Durbin Feeling book is a little to exacting in trying to make the Cherokee match up directly with the English with no in between that allows one to understand that certain concepts are just expressed differently, using different base ideas/words to arrive at the same conclusion in the end.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-18, 17:20

Mol_Bolom wrote:
Formiko wrote:juweji sigwa hawiyahno jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.


This sentence has one of the most confusing usages of a suffix that I've seen off and on. The placement of -hno.

With inquisitives, the suffix always goes on the first word.

sikwas hawiya tsaduli? Do you want Pork/bacon?

Even the suffix -gwu/gwv is used the same way...

anita'ligwu gitli unigisvi. It was only two dogs that ate it.

However, with -hno, it comes after the second word? Is -hno a special case when it comes to multiple words, or is it a dialectual thing? If it's a dialectual thing, then it would go that in certain dialects my two sentences thus would be "sikwa hawiyas tsaduli" and "anita'li gitligwu unigisvi", and thus Formiko's sentence would be "juweyi sikwahno hawiya tsigisgvi" in the dialect that I know.

AAAAAAAARGH...Forgot where I was going with this...Anyway, hopefully it made enough sense...


Is not "pig meat" a compound forming a single concept ? Bacon? Perhaps, "pig-meat". :)

Eggs, pig meat also, I ate them.

Then it seems that -hno would come at the end of the single concept.

If instead we put -hno after pig, we would get:

Eggs, pig also, meat, I ate them.

Which would imply that you ate the entire pig (IMHO) while it was still squealing. :stunned:

Mol_Bolom

Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-19, 0:14

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Is not "pig meat" a compound forming a single concept ? Bacon? Perhaps, "pig-meat". :)

Eggs, pig meat also, I ate them.

Then it seems that -hno would come at the end of the single concept.

If instead we put -hno after pig, we would get:

Eggs, pig also, meat, I ate them.

Which would imply that you ate the entire pig (IMHO) while it was still squealing. :stunned:


Hence why I find it rather odd.

Eggs, pig also, meat, I ate them.

Though, we shouldn't think of it like that. It probably would be closer to "Eggs and pig, meat I ate them".

Unlike English, Cherokee doesn't use the same rules. Instead of using and/or between words, it uses them at the ends of those words. Same for inquisitives, and -gwu. (Only the bird was chirping away, The bird only was chirping away. Only the small bird was chirping away, Chirping away only the small bird, Chirping away the small bird only...Umm...wait a minute...I think that explains, at least, the inquisitives and -gwu)...

Only the small bird was chirping away.
Usdigwu tsisgwa nigawea. This is rather odd. Only small the bird is Chirping, or Small only bird is chirping away.
Usdi tsisgwagwu nigawea. Small bird only chirping away.
Usdi tsisgwa nigaweagwu. Small bird chirping away only.

Therefore...
sikwagwu hawiya, Just Pork (pig only meat, Sort of "Meat of a pig only")
sikwa hawiyagwu, (Pig meat only, sort of "Only meat of a pig")

Umm...Ok, written down and studied it really doesn't look like there is any big difference. Therefore, usdigwu tsisgwa nigawea makes sense as well. (I can't explain why).

Hmm...There is one peculiarity, though...

tsitaga, sikwa, wagahno hawiya gesv. There is Chicken, pork, and beef. (There is chicken, pig, and cow meat).
tsisgwa, gitli, wesahno tsunsdi. There are little birds, little dogs, and little cats. (There are small birds, dogs, and cats)
In sentences such as these, the -hno suffix is placed at the end of the last noun, and the adjective is only spoken once...

Curious...Well, something to think about at some later time.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 3:18

Mol_Bolom wrote:
Hmm...There is one peculiarity, though...

tsitaga, sikwa, wagahno hawiya gesv. There is Chicken, pork, and beef. (There is chicken, pig, and cow meat).
tsisgwa, gitli, wesahno tsunsdi. There are little birds, little dogs, and little cats. (There are small birds, dogs, and cats)
In sentences such as these, the -hno suffix is placed at the end of the last noun, and the adjective is only spoken once...

Curious...Well, something to think about at some later time.


It could very well be that my example for three+ objects is entirely a misconstrued example. As I do not have a large example set of explained sentences showing usage.

Do you think that (a) is wrong usage and that (b) is the correct one?

(a)
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| Igada ogana | danigotiha | doya | awi-hno | etli-hno |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| some groundhogs | they see them | a beaver | a deer also | a mink also |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| A beaver, a deer, and a mink see some groundhogs. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

(b)
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| Igada ogana | danigotiha | doya | awi | etli-hno |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| some groundhogs | they see them | a beaver | a deer | a mink also |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| A beaver, a deer, and a mink see some groundhogs. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

After looking at: http://www.culturev.com/cherokee/storyteller/dine.html

I wonder if -hno is in actuality a "continuation/set" marker which can be construed as "and", "also", or like the way "so" at the start of sentences for a continuation of events?

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 3:45

Mol_Bolom wrote:tsitaga, sikwa, wagahno hawiya gesv. There is Chicken, pork, and beef. (There is chicken, pig, and cow meat).
tsisgwa, gitli, wesahno tsunsdi. There are little birds, little dogs, and little cats. (There are small birds, dogs, and cats)


Perhaps a closer English literal is:

Chicken, pig, cow also, meat, there is.

Birds, dogs, cats also, they are little.

<I also editing my ch6 fragment above to reflect single use of -hno per "set">
Mol_Bolom wrote:In sentences such as these, the -hno suffix is placed at the end of the last noun, and the adjective is only spoken once...

Curious...Well, something to think about at some later time.

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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 3:50

Formiko wrote:How can I access ᏩᏯᏩᏯ's dropbox? Would Wolf² be a better name? ;)


Welcome to the dropbox collaboration system. :) Thanks for the audio samples!

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 4:04

Formiko wrote:That's funny, because I use ᎠᎴ for almost everything. (It's probably wrong as heck, but it's common enough) Let's see
juweji ale sigwa hawiya jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
juweji sigwa hawiyahno jigisgv'i I ate bacon and eggs.
The old folks will always use -hno, while the younger generation will use ale after English.


Hrmmm, I defer to those who speak it from youth, at least to some degree, I only have recent exposure, via Durbin Feeling and Beginning Cherokee.

The statement ¨ale" is reserved for formal use and "-hno" is for common use may only be valid for the community he grew up in and the language set he was studying. There are many instances where "also" can be used in English, but, English speakers have a tendency to use "and" instead.

So far there is at least one point of disagreement with Durbin: (considering it was written in 197X, on a typewriter, with hitting lots of "backspace period", I am sure there is probably at least one error in it. ;)

Of course, it doesn't help matters any when Beginning Cherokee by Mrs. Holmes states "ale" means all three: "and", "or", "but" without any discussion of usage. Or that neither book mentions "nole", which I understand to be a pronunciation variant of "ale".

Discussion wrote:
Mol_Bolom wrote:Tohiju kohi svnale? (How are you this morning?)

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:kohi ?

pg 145 in Durbin shows as "a while ago" and "hi?a" p129 as this.

Idiomatic expression?


Mol_Bolom wrote:You might think of kohi, or the short form ko, as "this (in time)", "now", or the prefix "to" in "today" and "tonight". As for why Durbin translates it as "a while ago", I have no idea. Perhaps there's a different translation for a different pronunciation. I know kila has two different pronunciations for the translations "soon" and "later". (Just checked Durbin's dictionary, he has the second pronunciation as "Early in, not long ago").


ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
Indeed! looking the Cherokee New Testament for go-hi reveals the word now or other current time indicator in phrases that go-hi shows up in. I do not see where any of the verses it is in that it can be construed except for as "this (in time), aka now".


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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby Formiko » 2010-06-19, 4:36

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Indeed! looking the Cherokee New Testament for go-hi reveals the word now or other current time indicator in phrases that go-hi shows up in. I do not see where any of the verses it is in that it can be construed except for as "this (in time), aka now".


Which chapter and verse? I have the Cherokee NT in my hand...
Last edited by Formiko on 2010-06-19, 4:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-19, 4:54

Whew, a lot to look at... :shock: ;)

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:(a)
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| Igada ogana | danigotiha | doya | awi-hno | etli-hno |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| some groundhogs | they see them | a beaver | a deer also | a mink also |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| A beaver, a deer, and a mink see some groundhogs. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

(b)
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| Igada ogana | danigotiha | doya | awi | etli-hno |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| some groundhogs | they see them | a beaver | a deer | a mink also |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| A beaver, a deer, and a mink see some groundhogs. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
[/qoute]

(b) is correct. Though, it looks strange. I have never seen them at the end of a sentence.

Probably "Doya ahwi etlihno danigohtia igada ogana." would be better.

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
Mol_Bolom wrote:tsitaga, sikwa, wagahno hawiya gesv. There is Chicken, pork, and beef. (There is chicken, pig, and cow meat).
tsisgwa, gitli, wesahno tsunsdi. There are little birds, little dogs, and little cats. (There are small birds, dogs, and cats)


Perhaps a closer English literal is:

Chicken, pig, cow also, meat, there is.

Birds, dogs, cats also, they are little.


One thing I've read is that Cherokee's don't like saying more than what is necessary. Though, I really doubt that that's always true. However, I have yet to see any repetition in any phrases, books, etc as of yet.

Going through some of my papers, I'm seeing ale used more than anything.

Cherokee Advocate, April 1995:
Veterans
...nahna anitsalagi anisgaya ale anigehya ale anigehya uniyosidolv nahna dahnawa tsasgwalsgv ale tohi tsigesv dunaduli unateladisdi...

(Men and women and women) I think the second "ale anigehya" is a typo.

In a comic book I have, "Blondie", which is translated in Cherokee. "And besides" is "alehno vsgwu" (and so also, and and also).

"Then watch them eat everything we give them"
Nahiyuhno iyusdigwu ganihnehv dvnigi.
(And then just ? We will give it to them they eat them) (Often times I just don't know how to translate iyusdi).

"Dagwood, it's not their fault... They thought you meant they could eat your supper if you ate theirs!"
Adajewi, tladv sgina yinanvhnisa unohiyusvhehno gvwanigisdigwu gesv tsalsdayvdi nihihno tsiga unalsdayvdi!"
(Dagwood, Not <sgina> <nanvhnisa> and <they believe> just/only <gvwanigisdi> is your food and you <tsiga> their food.

(unohiyusvhe, don't really know what the suffix -vh- translates to, but the rest I know. un- They, ohiyus Believe, -e Was Verb+ing Reportative*/).
(I believe that gvwanigisdi translates to "Since you accidentally ate it").
I think tsiga is supposed to be higa. You'd be shocked to see all the typos I've found over the years...

Anyway, note where and when -hno was used, and that -hno wasn't translated in the first sentence.

<Edit> Before I got a chance to post this I've seen that you both said several things since, so I'll add one more about Kohi...

From the same comic book as above.

vsewv kohiwv usv iga unadvdidla ditsiyvsdisgesdi.
Just for a change tonight I'll go in the back door instead of the front door.
(Just possibly Just tonight ? towards the back door I will enter).
(Don't know the purpose of iga in this sentence).

Mol_Bolom

Re: Cherokee

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-19, 5:01

I will add one more thing about -hno. I don't really think of it as "and", "so", or anything else, or at least having a separate translation from those translations. I don't know why, but it is very easy for me to use, and easily understood.

Doyu agwehisdanehvi, tlagwvhno ugoda yagwadvnelv...
I was in so much pain, that I just couldn't do much.
" ", And therefore I just couldn't do much.

I'll create a sound file, so you all can hear what it sounds like.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 11:19

Formiko wrote:
ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Indeed! looking the Cherokee New Testament for go-hi reveals the word now or other current time indicator in phrases that go-hi shows up in. I do not see where any of the verses it is in that it can be construed except for as "this (in time), aka now".


Which chapter and verse? I have the Cherokee NT in my hand...


http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/0106.html, verse 11 / the lord's prayer, "this day", ᎪᎯ ᎢᎦ
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/0106.html, verse 30 / ᎪᎯ ᎢᎦ ᏤᎭ / "which today is"
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/0103.html, verse 15
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/1001.html, verse 21
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/1002.html, verse 2
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/1003.html, verse 5
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/1004.html, verse 14
http://www.cherokeenewtestament.org/1005.html, verse 16

many more examples I am sure, but all indicated a high degree of "nowness"

For the most part, I have to manually go to each page and search for <space>syllabary<space> as Google does not seem to have a very good index of the site.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 11:46

So...

What comments on the ale/nole/-hno comparison, which should be treated as primary form for use by students when translating English into Cherokee ? The Cherokee to English exercises will be 70%+ the primary form with the remainder being the secondary form to ensure recognition and understanding.

Keep in mind that the material that is being developed has the potential for impacting many many speakers. Especially if released by torrent. ;)

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 12:13

Mol_Bolom wrote:Whew, a lot to look at... :shock: ;)

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:(b)
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| Igada ogana | danigotiha | doya | awi | etli-hno |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| some groundhogs | they see them | a beaver | a deer | a mink also |
+------------------+----------------+-----------+--------------+-------------+
| A beaver, a deer, and a mink see some groundhogs. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+


(b) is correct. Though, it looks strange. I have never seen them at the end of a sentence.

Probably "Doya ahwi etlihno danigohtia igada ogana." would be better.



:hmm:

Subject Object Verb wrote:Doya ahwi etlihno igada ogana danigohtia.


Object Verb Subject wrote:Igada ogana danigohtia doya ahwi etlihno.


Where feasible, I wish to avoid the following:
Subject Verb Object wrote:Doya ahwi etlihno danigohtia igada ogana.


As both the subject and object are plural animates, I am under the belief that the sentence would be misconstrued as "Some groundhogs see a beaver, a deer, and a mink."

Perhaps this is a use case where "ale" would be the preferred form?

Object Verb Subject wrote:Igada ogana danigohtia doya ahwi ale etli.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno / Wolf Wears Shoes

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-19, 15:31

EDIT: changed unotla/ᎤᏃᏝ -> dunotla/ᏚᏃᏝ

See: ᎤᏃᏝ <-> ᏚᏃᏝ / Unotla vs Dunotla

Based on the previous discussion on "ale" and "-hno", here is a newer version of "Wolf Wears Shoes" for the end of Chapter 6. (Vocab and Tenses limited to only taught so far.)

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:6.4 Wolf Wears Shoes - Translate the following into English.

2. Wolf Wears Shoes.
(a) Waya dulasutla.
(b) ᏩᏯ ᏚᎳᏑᏝ.

3. Rabbit and squirrel are sitting near a river speaking.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno nav uweyv?i Dunotla aniwoniha-hno.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎤᏃᏝ ᎠᏂᏬᏂᎭᏃ.


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:

4. Rabbit and squirrel see beaver.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno doya anigotiha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏙᏯ ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ.

5. Beaver goes up to rabbit and squirrel yelling, "Look! Look!"
(a) Doya didla jisdu saloli-hno dega gehluhvsga-hno, “Ni! Ni!”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᏗᏜ ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏕᎦ ᏙᏯ ᎨᏡᎲᏍᎦᏃ, “Ꮒ! Ꮒ!”



Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:6. Rabbit says, "What's up beaver?"
(a) Jisdu adiha, “Gado usdi doya?”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᎦᏙ ᎤᏍᏗ ᏙᏯ?”

7. Beaver says, "There is something new by the river!"
(a) Doya adiha, “Gohusdi adagei nav uweyv?i”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᎪᎱᏍᏗ ᎠᏓᎨᎢ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ”


Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:
8. Beaver says, "Go and see it!"
(a) Doya adiha, “Sdena! Sdigowata-hno!”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᏍᏕᎾ! ᏍᏗᎪᏩᏔᏃ!”

9. Rabbit, squirrel, and beaver go down to the river.
(a) Jisdu, saloli, doya-hno uweyv?i anega.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎠᏁᎦ.



Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:
10. Wolf sees rabbit, squirrel, and beaver and says to them,
"Hello! What's going on?"
(a) Waya jisdu, saloli, doya-hno dagotiha adiha-hno, “Osiyo! Gado
usdi?”
(b) ᏩᏯ ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎠᏗᎭᏃ, “Ꮒ! ᎦᏙ ᎤᏍᏗ?”

11. Rabbit says, "Beaver says something new is by the river!"
(a) Jisdu adiha, “Doya adiha gohusdi adagei nav uweyv?i!”
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ ᎪᎱᏍᏗ ᎠᏓᎨᎢ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ!”
Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-10-29, 4:15, edited 1 time in total.

Mol_Bolom

Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-19, 16:58

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Where feasible, I wish to avoid the following:


Woops, got them reversed.

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Based on the previous discussion on "ale" and "-hno", here is a newer version of "Wolf Wears Shoes" for the end of Chapter 6. (Vocab and Tenses limited to only taught so far.)

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:6.4 Wolf Wears Shoes - Translate the following into English.

2. Wolf Wears Shoes.
(a) Waya dulasutla.
(b) ᏩᏯ ᏚᎳᏑᏝ.

3. Rabbit and squirrel are sitting near a river speaking.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno nav uweyv?i unotla aniwoniha-hno.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᎾᎥ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᏚᏃᏝ ᎠᏂᏬᏂᎭᏃ.


unotla aniwoniha, doesn't need -hno.

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:

4. Rabbit and squirrel see beaver.
(a) Jisdu saloli-hno doya anigotiha.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏙᏯ ᎠᏂᎪᏘᎭ.

Good.

5. Beaver goes up to rabbit and squirrel yelling, "Look! Look!"
(a) Doya didla jisdu saloli-hno dega gehluhvsga-hno, “Ni! Ni!”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᏗᏜ ᏥᏍᏚ ᏌᎶᎵᏃ ᏕᎦ ᏙᏯ ᎨᏡᎲᏍᎦᏃ, “Ꮒ! Ꮒ!”

didla should go after tsisdu salolihno, or add the prefix da to getluhvsga, and again, hno not necessary after getluhvsga.
tsisdu, salolihno dagetluhvsga doya, "Hni! Hni!"
Or
Tsisdu, salolihno didlv dagetluhvsga doya, "Hni! Hni!"
Also, it might even need the plural prefix, because it looks like he is only yelling at one of them.
Tsisdu, salolihno dodagetluhvsga doya, "Hni! Hni!"
Plural de- and coming prefix da- become doda-.

dega should be dayega.
Tsisdu, salolihno dayega doya, alehno degetluhvsga.

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:
8. Beaver says, "Go and see it!"
(a) Doya adiha, “Sdena! Sdigowata-hno!”
(b) ᏙᏯ ᎠᏗᎭ, “ᏍᏕᎾ! ᏍᏗᎪᏩᏔᏃ!”

Here, ale should have been used, or instead of sdena use the wi- prefix.
Doya adiha, "Wisdigohwata!".

9. Rabbit, squirrel, and beaver go down to the river.
(a) Jisdu, saloli, doya-hno uweyv?i anega.
(b) ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᎤᏪᏴᎢ ᎠᏁᎦ.

Good

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:
10. Wolf sees rabbit, squirrel, and beaver and says to them,
"Hello! What's going on?"
(a) Waya jisdu, saloli, doya-hno dagotiha adiha-hno, “Osiyo! Gado
usdi?”
(b) ᏩᏯ ᏥᏍᏚ, ᏌᎶᎵ, ᏙᏯᏃ ᏓᎪᏘᎭ ᎠᏗᎭᏃ, “Ꮒ! ᎦᏙ ᎤᏍᏗ?”
[/quote]

< 1 >
tsisdu, saloli, doyahno dagotia wahya, degoseha "Hni! Gado usdi?"
Or
Tsisdu, saloli, doyahno dagohtia, wahyahno degoseha "Hni! Gado usdi?".
degoseha = He is saying to them.
adiha = He is saying

Here's your first "real" lesson from me, ;).
Sometimes, though "and" is in the English translation, it does not mean that it is in the Cherokee translation.

Paul came and spoke to the people.
yvwi dodayuwoniselv kwala.
People he came spoke to them Paul.

Sometimes "and" is not used at all.

Paul came, and he spoke to them.
Kwal wuluhjv duwoniselei.
Paul arrived spoke to them.

Look at the first sentence in the story on page 354 of Durbin's dictionary.

Anitali anisgaya aninohalidohe, ahwi dunihyohe.
Two men were hunting, they were hunting a deer. Note that the English translation seems a bit off, so to make it much easier to understand, therefore we would add "and" in there.
Two men were hunting, and they were hunting a deer.

(Lost my thoughts again...However, just read through some of the stories and you will find other examples as well, better ones).
Last edited by Mol_Bolom on 2010-10-29, 2:27, edited 1 time in total.

Mol_Bolom

Re: Cherokee

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-06-19, 18:16

Trying to break down the story that you have...

See the thread, re- Cherokee.


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