Michif

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Michif

Postby Gormur » 2006-04-14, 19:44

Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-11, 6:16

OK, I asked about where I should post stuff about learning Michif and Media Lengua, but haven't gotten a reply in the past five days, so I'll just bump this thread that's more than seven years old. :lol:

The first two links are dead by now, but here's another one that I like:

http://www.learnmichif.com/

I'm hoping to use this (again!) to get back into Michif. :D

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-17, 1:12

This is the first dialog that they have on that website. It's puzzled me ever since I saw it. When I first started getting into Michif, pretty much all I could figure out was the first ten seconds. All of that is entirely in Cree:

Norman: Awani kiya? (Who's there? (I think literally it's 'who are you'? I remember kiya means 'you')).
Stella: Stella.
N: Ah, peestigway, Stella! (...come in...)
(S enters.)
N: Ah, nimeytaen ainwapimitan! (I'm glad to see you!)
S: Oh, nishta meena. (Oh, me too.)

And then I think she says something, but Norman talks over her, so after Stella's last line, I have no idea what they're saying, apart from a few French (and maybe even English) words that I hear in the middle. (Something about his kids...and eventually, I think he asks Stella to make some tea on the stove?).

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2013-12-23, 7:10

Reviewing some vocab from Lesson 1 (and mostly using their seemingly rather ad hoc transliteration system):
Tawnshi means 'hello'. 'Good morning' (according to the website, at least) is tawnshi kiya mataen; that is, "hello you morning (matin)." (Actually, I think "tawnshi" means something else in Cree, like 'you are good' or something). "How are you" is tawnshi kiya to one person and tawnshi kiyawow to more than one.

And I remembered 'how are they?' after going through those two: tawnshi wiyawow. 'How is your family?' = tawnshi ta famee.

I am fine. = Nimiyou ayawn.
Good evening/night. = Bon swear. (Straight from French, in contrast to 'good morning'!)
See you soon. = Meena kawapimitin.
Take care. = Pishshapmishko. (It sounded more like "pishkapmisho," lol).
What is your name? = Tawnshi eyishinikawshoyan.
My name is... = Dishinikawshon...
Where do you live? = Tawnday pe'oototayan? (Sounded like it didn't have the "pe'" at the beginning of the second word)
I live in Victoria. = Victoria niwiken.

OK, that's more than enough. :P I think I should make little quizzes for myself in this thread and the Mi'kmaq thread, so here goes:

Hello. Tawnshi.
Good morning. Tawnshi kiya mataen.
How are you? Tawnshi kiya?
How are y'all? Tawnshi kiyawow?
How are they? Tawnshi wiyawow?
How is your family? Tawnshi ta famee?
I am fine. Nimiyou ayawn.
Good evening/night. Bon swear.
See you soon. Meena kawapimitin.
Take care. Pishshapmishko.
What is your name? Tawnshi eyishinikawshoyan.
My name is Dishinikawshon
Where do you live? Tawnday pe'oototayan?
I live in Victoria. Victoria niwiken.

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-06, 7:12

Wow, I actually managed to remember most of that! :o Still need to remember "meena kawapimitin" for 'see you later' and "tawnday pe'oototayan?" for 'where do you live?' (In particular, it might be useful to remember that they didn't pronounce the "pe" at the beginning there). And of course, I still need to review the pronunciation of all of these phrases. :lol:

The other phrases from that lesson are: peetigway (I already know that; it means 'come in'. It's in the dialog!). Also "nishta meena" (me, too) and the French words (basically) for 'no', 'yes', 'please', and 'thank you' (although they say marsee).

It's great. = Si bon./Mioshin.
Say it again please. = Meena koshayitwae. (The recording seems to say that you can also say "Koshayitwae meena").
How do you say it? = Tawnshi aintwayaen?

I wonder whether I should start looking at some more linguisticky stuff on Algonquian languages to help me connect all these Cree phrases (from Michif) together with Lnuismk. :lol: I mean, if I can do it with Quechua...and generally, there are fewer resources for Central/South American languages than for North American ones anyway...might be worth a try! Not tonight, though. Done enough for now. :P

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-17, 3:37

OK, I just reviewed all of those phrases from lesson 1. Hmm, didn't really manage to remember all of them, particularly koshayitwae and (tawnshi) aintwayaen. Oh, also mioshin! :lol: Oh well. :P

Anyway, these dialogs (also from lesson 1) include an extra (unfamiliar) phrase meaning 'that's good'. It's something like "ekshi maaka." "Maaka" also appears kiya maaka? 'how about you?' in the second dialog. They also have ene bonne journee aya for 'have a nice day'.

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-01-26, 7:22

Geez, I've been so slow trying to get through my languages lately! :| Oh, well! :lol:

I think I remember all of this Michif stuff I've posted here, though.

OK, so now to...this, which I guess is the copula in Michif...or are these really just pronouns? Anyway, most of them are straightforward enough/easy enough to remember (and in fact I already know some of them, like kiya(wow) and wiya(wow)). The only weird one is the last one, 1PL: kiyanan. It almost sounds like "you-me"! :lol: I guess that makes sense, especially if it's something like an inclusive pronoun (or derived from something like an inclusive pronoun in Cree)! :P

And then 'what is his name' is transcribed tawnshi eshnikasheut, but listening to it, the only difference between this and 'what's your name' seems to be that the form asking for 'your' name ends in -yan whereas the one asking for 'his' name ends in -t. Similarly, 'her name is' is dishnikasho as opposed to dishinikashon 'my name is'.

Nimiyou ayaan/ayawn means 'I'm fine'. To say 'I'm not fine', you just add nimoya at the beginning. Nimoya nimiyou ayaan. (Does negation generally work this way in Michif? I wonder).

Oh gosh, the rest of this is kinda hard though; the memories of this page are coming back now. :lol: I think actually it would be best if I did not learn these phrases in the order they're listed in, but rather if I started with how to say 'he's fine', 'you're fine', etc., then moved on to 'I'm hungry', 'you're hungry', etc. and so on. So 'he's fine' is written here as miyoyow, which is really the same as nimiyou ayaan - ni - n + w, basically.

The forms for 'we are fine' and 'they are fine' actually make sense to me now. Nimiyou anan seems to be a misspelling or something; it sounds more like nimiyou ayanan, i.e. nimiyou ayaan + -an. Miyoiyawuk makes sense, too; it has that Cree animate plural suffix -ak (here transcribed -uk).

I just went over the phrases having to do with being hungry. :P Those seem pretty straightforward, too, when you listen to them. :lol: The transliterations don't seem to make much sense at all. Or, I don't know, that's just how it intuitively feels to me right now. :P Noohteh gataan 'I am hungry', noohteh gatanaan 'we are hungry', noohteh gatayo 'she is hungry' (with that Cree -ew suffix written as -ayo), and notay gatayowuk 'they are hungry'.

Similarly, dakoshin 'I am sick', dakoshinaan 'we are sick', akoshiow 'she is sick', and akoshishaywuk 'they are sick'.

All right, now I'm just going to listen to that video again. I think I just love watching it for some reason! :lol:

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-10, 6:53

It's funny that I said that in the last paragraph of my last post, actually, because you can hear noohteh gataan in that video if you listen carefully. I just realized that tonight. I think Norman is (saying he's hungry and) asking Stella in that video whether she's (also) hungry. (I think he's also saying that if she's hungry, there's some cheese and tomatoes, but I have no idea what he's proposing they do with that. Finally, I think he's suggesting at the end of the video that she make some tea if she is hungry).

Anyway, the who/when questions are pretty straightforward (despite the oddness of the recording for 'where are you plural', where the recording barely sounds like what is written there, not to mention the lack of parentheses around the word "plural" :lol:). The last part, about asking where someone lives and telling them where you live, seems more complicated. The verb meaning 'live' seems to be different depending on not only the person and number of the subject but also whether it occurs in a question or a statement. There must be some strategy for forming interrogative verbs in this language that isn't clear to me yet.

I've already seen niwiiken 'I live'. 'Do I live?' is wiikiyaan.
Then wiikiyaen means 'do you live?' and kiwiiken means 'you live'.
Wiikit means 'does he/she (or it?) live?' and wi(c)keow [wiːˈkɪw] means '(s)he (or it?) lives'.
Aiwikiyaak [ẽˈwiːkijaːk] means 'do we live?' and niwiikinan [nɪˈwiːkɪ̃nãːn] means 'we live'.
Wiikiyaek [ˈwiːkijeːk] means 'do y'all live?' and the word written here as kiniwikinawow but pronounced [kɪwiːˈkɪ̃naːwaːw] means 'y'all live'.
Wiikachik [ˈwiːgətʃɪk] means 'do they live?' and wikiiwuk [ˈwiːkɪwək] means 'they live'.

The declarative ones for the last two make perfect sense, based on the pattern I noted last time. It looks like I'm going to have to memorize those interrogative forms, though.

Hmm, it kind of helps that all of the plural interrogative forms end in -k, though. That might be a meaningful pattern. Maybe. :lol:

And now I'm finally done with lesson one! :)

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-02-23, 7:50

So, in this video (for lesson #2), Norm and Stella are talking about Stella's family. I must confess, I wasn't paying all that much attention to this video tonight, but she said something about her dad(?) used to work on the railroad, and then Norm asked whether her grandfather did, too. And then she said, "No, my grandpa was a...(how do you say...) shoemaker," and Norm pointed out that that would be cordonnier. And I guess another relative was a bridge-builder.

Anyway, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DftWH7AK83c

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-03-14, 1:38

OK, so today, I'm going over kinship terms. There appear to be a lot of them in the list, but it's actually not that hard, because so many of them are from French. :lol: One of the exceptions is moushoum 'grandfather', which I already knew (and appears in the dialog I posted last time). The others are:

nouhkom- grandmother
noshishim(ak)- grandchild(ren)
nishimish- younger sister (also translated once as 'older brother', but I think that may have just been a mistake)
nimish- older sister
nishtaish- older brother (note that there's another word translated as 'big brother'!)

There are also some slight deviations in the French-derived vocabulary. Basically, 'husband' is vieux, 'son' is just the French word for 'boy', 'uncle' sounds like it has part of the indefinite article and also clipped (un oncle > something like nonc), and 'niece' sounds like the nasal at the beginning has been deleted and yet compensated for, as there is nasalization on the vowel instead.

On that page, there's also penepa 'go to sleep', meu nepaa 'sleep well', and keesha kee taen 'I love you'. The first word in the second one is (I'm pretty sure) the French word mieux 'better', and these expressions are highly reminiscent of (Lnuismk) wli-npa 'sleep well' and kesalul 'I love you'.

Finally, there are a few "useful words." The ones I sometimes have (or at least used to have) trouble remembering are mishchet 'a lot' (or, alternatively, the French-derived expression aen maass), maashcoat 'maybe', and wawipat 'often'. The other three (French-derived) expressions are taad baen, also meaning 'maybe', along with pi 'and', and(!) aen 'a(n)'.

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Re: Michif

Postby linguoboy » 2014-03-14, 2:30

vijayjohn wrote:'uncle' sounds like it has part of the indefinite article and also clipped (un oncle > something like nonc)

That's the form found in Cajun French (and I reckon other colloquial varieties as well).
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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-04-05, 22:35

Marsee! :) I kind of wish there was a standardized spelling system for Michif.

So today, I'm just reviewing vocabulary, as I've been doing the past few days with pretty much all the endangered languages I'm studying. Those kinship terms are kind of hard. But I've reviewed those, too.

Here's a list of the other terms I've been through in this thread (except keesha kee taen 'I love you')...but this time with spoiler tags around them :P

It's good. = (Cree) Mioshin or (French) Si bon
Say it again, please. = Meena koshayitwae. (Maybe also koshayitwae meena)
How do you say it? = Tawnshi aintwayaen?
That's good. = Ekshi maaka.
How about you? = Kiya maaka?
Have a nice day! = Ene bonne journée aya! (probably not the spelling they would've used, but oh, well. It's not like they're consistent, either! :lol:)
inclusive 'we' = kiyanan
What is his name? = Tawnshi eshnikasheut?
Her name is... = ...dishnikasho.
I'm not fine. = Nimoya nimiyou ayaan.
He's fine. = Miyoyow.
We're fine. = Nimiyou anan (should be ayanan, i.e. ayaan + -an?).
They're fine. = Miyoiyawuk.
I'm hungry. = Noohteh gataan.
We're hungry. = Noohteh gatanaan.
She is hungry. = Noohteh gatayo.
They are hungry. = Notay gatayowuk.
I am sick. = Dakoshin.
We are sick. = Dakoshinaan.
She is sick. = Akoshiow.
They are sick. = Akoshishaywuk.
I live = Niwiiken
You live = Kiwiiken
(S)he lives = Wi(c)keow
We live = Niwiikinan
Y'all live = Kiniwikinawow
They live = Wikiiwuk
Do I live? = Wiikiyaan?
Do you live? = Wiikiyaen?
Does (s)he live? = Wiikit?
Do we live? = Aiwikiyaak?
Do y'all live? = Wiikiyaek?
Do they live? = Wiikachik?
Go to sleep. = Penepa.
Sleep well. = Meu nepaa.

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-05-23, 2:10

I just realized about half an hour ago that for the interrogative forms for the verb 'to live', the plural forms have (roughly) the same vowel as their singular correspondent forms in the last syllable:

wiikiyaan 'do I live?' | aiwikiyaak 'do we live?'
wiikiyaen 'do you live?' | wiikiyaek? 'do y'all live?' (these are actually different vowels, but still, mid front)
wiikit 'does (s)he live?' | wiikachik 'do they live?'

Makes it slightly easier to memorize those, I guess. I should probably see what the general pattern for verbs is in Michif (and probably will soon enough :P). It might be even more helpful to look at Algonquian languages more generally (Proto-Algonquian verbal system? :silly:).

But anyway, now I've reviewed all of that. I don't think I should cover all that much more new vocabulary this time. Just a little. (I don't have much time left today anyway. My Internet connection will die in less than an hour).

Well, I guess I'll just list the forms for the verb 'to have' that are listed just after the family members and such. (Not sure about the stress assignments)

I have = Ndayaan
We have = Ndayaanaan
You have = Keetayaan [kɪtaˈjaːn]
Y'all have = Keedayaanawow [kɪtaˈjaːna:wa:w]
He/she has = Aayow [aˈjaːw]
They have = Aayowuk [aˈja:wək]

Hmm, sounds easy enough, actually, now that I seem to know how declarative verbs in this language are conjugated. :D

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-07-25, 6:20

Wow, I finally managed to get through that review. I had to go through all those words like three times or something! :shock:

Oh good God, now there's another verb, too! Eeek! Oh well, I'll just try to learn that and nothing else this time. :P :lol:

I am thirsty. = Noohteh awpawgwan.
We are thirsty. = Noohteh awpawgwanaan.
She is thirsty. = Noohteh awpawgweyo.
They are thirsty. = Noohteh apayagwawuk.

And actually, that's basically all there is to the first lesson! :D I listened to the dialog once more, too, since they recommend that, but...I won't comment on it right now. Maybe next time. :lol: And then I can talk about the next dialog (again), too! :D

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-08-23, 9:29

OK, so I think the only new thing I got from the first dialog listening to it just now was that Norman asked Stella whether she was hungry. But I think that's it. :lol: And then in the second dialog, I think when Stella said her grandfather was a shoemaker, Norman asked her where he worked, and then he realized that he worked at the store. I think the bridge-builder she talked about was her dad.

And then the next thing they teach is the verb 'to have' in past tense:
I had = geeaayaan
We had = geeaayaanan
You had = keeyaayaan
Y'all had = keeyaayaanawow
He/she had = keeyaayow
They had = keeyaawuk (be careful about pronounciation here! [ˈkiːja:wək]

That's definitely enough for now though. :lol:

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-12-25, 4:33

I think I can actually finish off (well, almost finish off) this lesson pretty easily! :D

OK, maybe not, because there's this "dialogue listening" part which always has some new vocabulary that they never write out for some reason. Not even in their idiosyncratic orthography (sorry)! :P For that reason, I may even have to change some of these transcriptions later, if I happen to encounter these words written out in later lessons:

- Do you have...? -Yes, I have... = - ...chee kitayawow? - We...nidayawow.
I'm great = Mitoonih(?) [mɪtʊˈnɪ(h)] nimiyou ayawn
how many = tamay gohk (sp?)
How many siblings do you have [or rather, are in your family]? = Tamay gohk eta shiek (sp?) dans votre famee?
How many...do you have? = Tamay gohk li...ainyawachik? (sp?)
your grandmother = kouhkom
your grandfather = kimoushoum

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-08-27, 1:09

Some more phrases from that lesson:

Where do your grandparents live? = Taande tes granparaan aywekachick?
Where do your parents live? = Taande wekachick tay paraan?
Where was I born? = Taande ganataowigian?
Where were you born? = Taande ganataowigiaen?
Where was he born? = Taande ganataowagit?
Where were we born? = Taande ganataowigiaak?
Where were y'all born? = Taande ganataowigaek?
Where were they born? = Taande ganataowigachik?

Yyyyeah, that's enough for one post, definitely. :lol:

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Re: Michif

Postby Koko » 2015-09-04, 17:06

Tansi Vijay!

I'm going to reply to that first post you mentioned Cree on what "tawnshi" meant ^^ Very late of course, but :P

Tawnshi comes from Cree "tansi" (also tanisi), which means the exact same thing and is also used for "How…?" ;)

Also, I'm glad Michif kept musum :mrgreen: But what happened to kukum? Why they no use Cree :cry: ?

And the resemblance between mîn(a) and meena is impeccable. Is "nishta" the full form of the first singular pronoun, do you know?

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Re: Michif

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-09-04, 17:31

Koko wrote:Tansi Vijay!

Tansi Koko! :mrgreen:
Tawnshi comes from Cree "tansi" (also tanisi), which means the exact same thing and is also used for "How…?" ;)

I know. :)
Also, I'm glad Michif kept musum :mrgreen: But what happened to kukum? Why they no use Cree :cry: ?

They have kukum, too, I'm 99% sure. But 'my grandmother' is nouhkom.
And the resemblance between mîn(a) and meena is impeccable. Is "nishta" the full form of the first singular pronoun, do you know?

Oh, I never actually thought about that! :lol: Huh, yeah, idk, maybe. :P

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Re: Michif

Postby Koko » 2015-09-04, 17:39

vijayjohn wrote:
Tawnshi comes from Cree "tansi" (also tanisi), which means the exact same thing and is also used for "How…?" ;)

I know. :)

Oh :oops:

They have kukum, too, I'm 99% sure. But 'my grandmother' is nouhkom.

Oh :lol: Cree has that too (nohkôm) :P I just knew "kukum."

Oh, I never actually thought about that! :lol: Huh, yeah, idk, maybe. :P

Now I'm going to check for nista in Cree.

EDIT: nista/nîsta in Cree are "me too," and similarly there's kîsta. The full pronoun of ni- is "niya" (like kiya!). Dammit…


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