Saim's log 2017-2019

[Saim]

but if Sikhs want a free Khalistan, then oh noes they can't be independent because they're so small! (My mom actually said something like this to me once).

TIL a 30 million-strong agricultural powerhouse is "too small".

As if Bhutan and Sri Lanka are clamouring to join India...

[eskandar]

I think Duolingo is only really useful if you find it fun/use it to make dead time more productive (which is why it's ridiculous the app still has no offline functionality!).

...

One of the things that's both good and bad about Duolingo is it doesn't allow you to skip any vocabulary; under normal circumstances I would never go out of my way to make sure I really know words like fıl and etek

Totally agree. I use Duolingo only because I'm a serious phone addict (especially during my dead time) and, aside from Anki, I don't know of other apps that are actually useful for language learning. I'm not really into Clozemaster (though maybe I should give it another shot?) and don't like Memrise. I need something that isn't primarily audio-based and that I can do for 30 seconds or a couple of minutes at a time. (Other recommendations?)

I so wish you could customize the vocabulary for something like Duolingo. I also don't care about most of this kind of vocabulary (I think you mean fil, btw) and wish I could replace the stuff about animals and clothing, for example, with literary terms or other things relevant to my own interests. I don't know why so much language learning material (for any language) considers the "basics" to be things like animals. I know how to say "frog" in Urdu (a word I've never needed to use in that language) but couldn't tell you how to say "74", for example. Now I'm thinking of all the other nearly useless words I've had to learn in various languages--for whatever reason, "montaña rusa" was one I learned very early on in Spanish, and in the 16 years since I think I've only ever used it once--and all the basic things I had to learn the hard way later on. In my opinion, one of the first things any textbook for a contemporary spoken language should teach you is how to order food in the language. It's almost always something terrifically idiomatic that you would never guess, and once you know the formula and a few basic food words, you can use the language to actually accomplish something useful, as millions of tourists can attest to.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, I don't use Duolingo (much). Sometimes, I try to use it to improve my vocabulary or something, but I'm getting increasingly frustrated with it because it takes forever and feels like doing my translation job for free, and now the audio doesn't seem to work on my desktop, either, even though I tried to fix it...

but if Sikhs want a free Khalistan, then oh noes they can't be independent because they're so small! (My mom actually said something like this to me once).

TIL a 30 million-strong agricultural powerhouse is "too small".

When she said that, I was like "yeah because Kerala is so big right?" and she was like "see, that's why we don't try to become independent 'cause we're small too and we'd be fucked if we were all on our own!" (Of course she didn't use those exact words, but you know ).

As if Bhutan and Sri Lanka are clamouring to join India...

Bhutan is basically a client state of India à la Sikkim (elder brother, as my dad used to call it, is always a reliable source btw!), and both of them have either ethnic conflicts or wars, which totally don't exist in India, right?

I know how to say "frog" in Urdu (a word I've never needed to use in that language) but couldn't tell you how to say "74", for example.

That's funny, I know how to count and say "74" (چوهتر) but didn't know "frog," so I looked it up...and then I found out that apparently, the Hindi Wikipedia decided to make the retroflex breathy voiced. Lolwut?

[voron]

because I'm a serious phone addict (especially during my dead time)

Unfortunately I am too and it looks like it's getting worse. So yeah if I cannot get rid of this addiction at least I want to make it more productive. Reading my friends' facebook pages in Turkish counts, no?

Using Duo is not an option for me because it won't teach me anything new for Turkish, and it doesn't offer Arabic or Kurdish (or anything Iranian), and I am not interested in anything else atm.

[eskandar]

That's funny, I know how to count and say "74" (چوهتر) but didn't know "frog," so I looked it up...and then I found out that apparently, the Hindi Wikipedia decided to make the retroflex breathy voiced. Lolwut?

How did you learn to count, did you sit down and memorize all the numbers? I think I can count to 60 and then I just know 70, 80, 90, 100, and so on. I really need to get those last 40 nailed down.

The word I knew has an unaspirated retroflex (مینڈک), but I think the aspirated version is a common variant. See here. Both turn up in a number of dictionaries, though Platts seems to only have the unaspirated form.

Using Duo is not an option for me because it won't teach me anything new for Turkish, and it doesn't offer Arabic or Kurdish (or anything Iranian), and I am not interested in anything else atm.

I've been using it for Turkish, and it's not terrible for someone at a more basic level like me. I really need to develop my reading skills in French, Italian, and German, but I can't bring myself to bother with Duolingo for those (though I at least completed the French tree a few years ago). Actually, my biggest wish for Duo would be a "passive skills only" option where you only translate from the target language into your primary language, never the reverse. I only need to be able to read German, I have absolutely zero interest in actively producing sentences like "her brother's horse drinks milk" in the language. It would be an incredibly easy feature to implement but I don't think they'll do it because they're attached to this marketing idea that Duolingo teaches "all of the four skills" needed for language learning.

[voron]

because they're attached to this marketing idea that Duolingo teaches "all of the four skills" needed for language learning.

I am dreaming about an open source Duo-like platform where both the source codes and language trees would be created by community, similar to the wiki principle. New features and languages would be added much faster then.

[eskandar]

Man, that would be awesome...

[vijayjohn]

How did you learn to count, did you sit down and memorize all the numbers?

Yeah, that, and then I kept reciting them to myself and correcting myself every time I suddenly got one wrong in the middle. It's a bit like how I've been trying to memorize this epic poem in heavily Sanskritized Malayalam. (An epic poem from the 1870s or so where the British are consistently referred to as [ˈhuːɳɛn]/[huːɳɛnˈmaːr] 'Hun(s)', made up of heavily Sanskritized Malayalam and, randomly, the English word "boat" ).

The word I knew has an unaspirated retroflex (مینڈک), but I think the aspirated version is a common variant. See here. Both turn up in a number of dictionaries, though Platts seems to only have the unaspirated form.

Oh OK, thanks!

[Saim]

Plans for the next semester.

Intensive reading - German, MSA.
I'll print interesting things out and highlight things and then do physical flaschards (pen, paper, scissors, rubber bands...). I need to get away from the computer! I'll also use textbooks at my uni's library.

Textbook study - Turkish.
I'll keep going through the İstanbul textbook along with bits and pieces of Glossika.

Intensive listening - Hebrew, Urdu, Galician.
I'll use dubbed cartoons with Hebrew subtitles for Hebrew and BBCUrdu's Youtube channel for Urdu.
For Galician I'll relisten to the same clips again and again. I won't note down any sentences or vocabulary.

Writing - Hebrew, Hungarian, Urdu, French, (Galician?).
I need to write more in these languages. Something along these lines.

Classes - Russian.
I'll sign up for Russian classes at a language school.

[voron]

I'll print interesting things out and highlight things and then do physical flaschards (pen, paper, scissors, rubber bands...). I need to get away from the computer! I'll also use textbooks at my uni's library.

That sounds like an awesome idea! I'm gonna steal it

I'll need my phone anyway to look things up in a dictionary. I don't have a single paper dictionary...

[Saim]

I've removed a star from Hebrew on my profile because when I was on my Hungarian course there was an Israeli girl and although I could understand what she said to me quite well I could barely respond in Hebrew because everything was coming to me in Hungarian (even, or maybe even especially, basic vocabulary). I'm glad she was patient enough to speak to me in Hebrew despite how rusty my level was, but it was irritating not being able to keep my end of the conversation going (although she seemed happy to talk away without much input on my part ). I've added a star to Hungarian, though (I was in the B2 group in a course that went for four weeks with 3-4.5 hours of class a day). I definitely need to do some active revision of Hebrew, and I don't think just watching TV or listening to music will cut it -- in September I'll go over some beginner resources for a couple of days and then get back into more natural language use. Kind of frustrating because my Hebrew was definitely better than my Hungarian just a couple of months ago but I guess it's an inevitable result of juggling so many languages.

I've also removed a star from Punjabi. I haven't used it at all since I left Pakistan (except listening to the occasional song), so I seriously doubt it's at the same level. That said, I'd probably be able to reactivate it without damaging my Urdu too much, which used to be one of my main difficulties, so I'm happy. I'll let Punjabi atrophy for the time being because it's unfortunately hard for me to find any reasons to prioritise it (there are so many other languages I have more immediate use for, and are much easier to study to boot...). If I put more effort into Urdu and get to a solid C1 level it'll be much easier to work on my Punjabi anyway.

[Saim]

In my opinion, one of the first things any textbook for a contemporary spoken language should teach you is how to order food in the language. It's almost always something terrifically idiomatic that you would never guess, and once you know the formula and a few basic food words, you can use the language to actually accomplish something useful, as millions of tourists can attest to.

This reminds me of how hard it's been to learn the expression take away in foreign languages. It's completely different across languages and I've always had to learn it in-country; no course ever covers it, I've never been taught it in language classes, it hardly (if ever) comes up in music or TV shows, it doesn't necessarily show up in all dictionaries...

Hungarian:
Itt fogyasztod vagy elviszed?
Lit: Here consume-[you/it] or away-take-[you/it]

If you don't know the word fogyaszt (as is likely at tourist level Hungarian) or are confused by the definite conjugation you're basically screwed.

Serbian:
Some people say "za ovde ili za poneti?" (for here or for to take?), but others think that's German or Italian influence and prefer the more Serbian "hoćete da ponesete" (do you want that you take?) or "da li ćete ovde jesti ili ćete poneti?" (will you eat here or will you take?).

Catalan:
Per prendre aquí o per emportar/endur?
For to take here or for to take away?
When I first moved to Catalonia I would say per a portar (to carry) because I misinterpreted the "e" in emportar as the preposition "a", partially under the influence of Spanish para llevar (the direct translation of the Catalan expression would be "por llevarse" in Spanish, which of course makes no sense).

Urdu:
IIRC Urdu uses the verb le jana here (to take away). I used to just say "take away" because I would always forget to ask anyone how to say it and I would get caught out when already in the situation. Even now I have no way to look this up other than just asking natives.

Polish:
Na miejscu, czy na wynos?
On place (locative) or on taking/carrying-out (accusative)?

IIRC In Slovak and Czech "take away" is something like s sebou (with oneself?).

[vijayjohn]

IIRC Urdu uses the verb le jana here (to take away).

In Malayalam, we say something similar (some form of something like 'take' + 'to go'). I'm pretty sure these kinds of serial verb constructions in Indo-Aryan languages were calqued off of Dravidian a long time ago.

So normally, in Malayalam, 'take away' or 'take with (whoever's self )' would be [koɳˈɖɯ ˈpoːʋuga], but I'm not sure this is the way we'd say it if we were talking about taking something out of a restaurant. Then we'd probably say [jɛɖʊˈt̪oːɳɖɯ ˈpoːʋuga], which is literally [jɛˈɖʊt̪ɯ] 'taken' + [koɳˈɖɯ ˈpoːʋuga]. I guess you could say both [ɛˈɖʊt̪ɯ] and [koɳˈɖɯ] mean 'taken', but [koɳˈɖɯ] is pretty much limited to fixed expressions (for example, it's become fossilized as our instrumental case marker as well) unlike [ɛˈɖʊt̪ɯ], which is the word we normally use for 'taken'. [jɛˈɖʊt̪ɯ] here also has the connotation of carrying something (like you'd do with food) whereas [koɳˈɖɯ ˈpoːʋuga] could also mean e.g. allowing a person to accompany you somewhere.

[voron]

IIRC In Slovak and Czech "take away" is something like s sebou (with oneself?).

This is what we say in Russian too: с собой.

In Turkish it's very simplistic: paket.

In my opinion, one of the first things any textbook for a contemporary spoken language should teach you is how to order food in the language. It's almost always something terrifically idiomatic that you would never guess

Really? Hmm I am trying to imagine what I say in Russian when I am ordering food at a cafe, and it's usually something very simple: Hello, please bring the menu, I would like this and this, do you have a salad, etc.

The greatest difficulty I had when ordering food in Turkey arose just because I didn't know foods' names. Like, I come to a doner stand, apparently I want a doner, so I just say that:
- Döner.
- Et mi tavuk mu? (Meat or chicken? - Ok this is simple, I can answer this.)
- Tavuk.
- Yarım mı tam mı? (Half or full? - Ok I can guess that it's about the portion size.)
- Yarım.
- Dürüm mü tombik mi? (.. What? Ok I give up, just give me anything, I am hungry as hell)

For the curious, dürüm is a wrap, and tombik is a kind of sandwich bread. The locals would just say bir yarım (one half), and the guy assumed by default that it's chicken doner in half bread. But with me no, it looked like he was testing how much Turkish I know.

[הענט]

Karnım aç. Yalla yalla. (I know the latter is Arabic, but I don't know the word for fast yet. )

Btw. I love dürüm, because it's less messy and nothing falls off.

[vijayjohn]

I don't know the word for fast yet.

Çabuk or hızlı.

[Kenny]

Hungarian:
Itt fogyasztod vagy elviszed?
Lit: Here consume-[you/it] or away-take-[you/it]

It can also be "Itt fogyasztod vagy elvitelre (implied: kéred)?" --- [...] or for the take-away? This is fairly common even though the two parts of the sentence don't really fit together from a strict grammatical point of view (with the omission of kéred).

(For those of you who don't speak Hungarian "elvitelre kéred" could be parsed as something like: you "ask for it for take-away" / Do you want to eat it here or do you want it for take-away.)

visz - he/she/it carries
elvisz - he/she/it carries/takes away
elvitel - the act of taking/carrying away, ie. "take-away"
elvitelre - (the literal meaning of "-re" is usually onto, but it can also refer to the purpose of something, e.g. "Mire kell ez?" - "What do you need this for?") for (the purpose of) taking away

kér - he/she/it asks, requests

[הענט]

I don't know the word for fast yet.

Çabuk or hızlı.

Nice thanks.

Update: I downloaded 1000+ Turkish flashcards and to my surprise I already knew some of these words. Kent - city. I realized I knew Tashkent meant Stone city in Uzbek (well Toshkent, because they shift their a's to o's.) and duygu is emotion, I remember the actress Duygu Çetinkaya

Yesterday I overheard the Romanians speaking on the phone. The older one said something like magazin (shop from Russian) and the young guy was talking to a friend (I guess) and asked him "Ai futu-o?" which is the only thing I understood. lol

[הענט]

Hungarian:
Itt fogyasztod vagy elviszed?
Lit: Here consume-[you/it] or away-take-[you/it]

It can also be "Itt fogyasztod vagy elvitelre (implied: kéred)?" --- [...] or for the take-away? This is fairly common even though the two parts of the sentence don't really fit together from a strict grammatical point of view (with the omission of kéred).

(For those of you who don't speak Hungarian "elvitelre kéred" could be parsed as something like: you "ask for it for take-away" / Do you want to eat it here or do you want it for take-away.)

visz - he/she/it carries
elvisz - he/she/it carries/takes away
elvitel - the act of taking/carrying away, ie. "take-away"
elvitelre - (the literal meaning of "-re" is usually onto, but it can also refer to the purpose of something, e.g. "Mire kell ez?" - "What do you need this for?") for (the purpose of) taking away

kér - he/she/it asks, requests

How would you say " Elvis took away my heart" in Hungarian?

EDIT: I just realized I updated my TAC at Saim's place. Sorry .

[Kenny]

Elvis elrabolta a szívem(et).
Elvis foglyul ejtette a szívem(et).
Elvis rabul ejtette a szívem(et).

They are all variations on "took my heart prisoner". Can't think of anything idiomatic with "take away". But if I had to translate it literally for some reason, I would say "Elvis elvitte a szívem" (but that would refer to him literally removing my heart and taking it with him).