TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-05-23, 19:02

I've been doing some reflecting on my language studies. The French text we use for my course is En bons termes. There's an online component to it called MyFrenchLab. (The publisher, Pearson, has an integrated online component called MyLanguageLab - with Language replaced by whatever language - for all its language study texts. If you're curious, you can see their tutorial video to the lab here.)

So yesterday night I was going through the Lab, and also through the textbook. And I had two realizations. Both are related to my French knowledge and level. If you recall, I mentioned previously that the French course I'm taking is level 5 of 9. I was assessed to be at this level through a test. So I thought that was confirmation that my French knowledge is at B1-ish level. But apparently the first 8 levels of French use this same textbook! The course I'm in will only cover chapters 13-15. In fact, the stuff we're doing right now, which constitute the first few pages of chapter 13 as well as exercises 13.1 and 13.2, are on l'imparfait and les différences entre l'imparfait et le passé composé. The Lab component is where I would do the exercises and submit them, and before I could being I had to do a pre-test to make sure I understood in English the grammatical concepts the chapter would cover. After doing the pre-test, the system recommended I watch the tutorial videos on English imperfect past tense, and on the imperfective/perfective aspect. It was pretty enlightening because I realized I was always mixing up the perfective aspect with the perfect tenses. I also never quite understood the differences between the non-imperfect and imperfect past tenses in the Romance languages.

All that is to say, I'm now starting to doubt my actual French abilities and knowledge and level. When I went through the textbook I started reading through the chapter 13 vocabulary (which is related to family) and there was a good mix of new words and ones I already knew. I even flipped to the last chapter (22 I think), and found the same - the vocabulary had a mix of new and old words.

I used to think gaps in my language knowledge were due to self-study. But yesterday night I realized, it's due to the way I studied. Because of a few different factors, my language studies have always been sporadic and inconsistent. (At least I see it that way). So while I know the forms of le conditionnel and can use them correctly, I make mistakes on when to use l'imparfait and when to use le passé composé. While I know words like le pire, le secours, and le séjour (all part of the vocabulary from chapter 22), words like accoucher, l'alliance, and (être en) deuil (all from chapter 13) were new to me.

For those of you reading this who know French and have read my French writings on this forum, what do you think my level is at - a high beginner, like A2, or a low intermediate, like B1, or something else?
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-05-23, 19:09

Second realization/thought - I split this up from the previous post so it's not so long to read:

Because there are gaps in my knowledge, it might be worth me going through the first 12 chapters of En bons termes simultaneously while the course is going on. I wouldn't have to do any exercises per se, at least not ones that would be graded. If I'm doing this, which I'm leaning towards, I don't think I'll continue actively studying any other language. At least until the course is finished and/or I get through all 12 chapters. I'll still use what I know in other languages, and am sure will passively learn things (such as when I get corrected on this forum).
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-05-29, 9:11

I recently started a band, and on Sunday night we had our first practice session. We picked 5 songs to work on. I mention this because when I came home, I found myself trying to translate one of the songs into French. The song is called Superman by Five For Fighting (the link is to a lyric video on Youtube).

I've only done the first verse and bridge/chorus as well as the first two lines of the second verse. I basically did a line-by-line translation because I couldn't really figure out an overall meaning to the song. I also tried to translate in such a way that the syllable count was the same, or that the French version could be sung at roughly the same prosody.

► Show Spoiler


*I was going to go with "je veux trouver la / meilleure partie de moi" but the second line didn't quite work with the song.
**I'm not sure if "je suis plus que" is grammatical or works as a translation for "I'm more than".
***This line was tricky to do; in order to sing it to the correct timing, you need to kind of rush the words, but I can't think of a more efficient way to express the original.


What do you guys think? This is my first attempt at translating from English to French (well...first attempt that I'm posting publicly for feedback!), so please be gentle. :yep:
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-03, 9:21

I think I'm going to start writing out what I did each week that was language learning related. I realized that I'm forever thinking that I'm not doing enough, or when I read other people's TACs, comparing myself to them and thinking they are progressing while I'm not. Which of course isn't true. For now I'm not sure when I'll start going through my language list again. But because of my French course I can see small improvement in my French.

My first French class was on May 13, and then there wasn't a class on May 20 due to a Canadian holiday. So I'll start with what I did those first two weeks. I learned about the differences between l'imparfait and le passé composé. I never quite understood the concept of an imperfect past tense and a perfect past tense, mostly because English doesn't have that distinction, and also because I mixed up the ideas of a perfect tense and a perfective aspect. In En bons termes - the textbook my class uses - the three main distinctions used between l'imparfait[i] and [i]le passé composé are completed vs incomplete event, single occurrence vs repeated or habitual action, and discontinuous vs continuous event. In class the prof drew a horizontal line representing time, and he said that le passé composé is used for events that you could either mark with an X (i.e., they occur at a single point in time on the graph) or that you could enclose in brackets (i.e., they have a fixed start and end time). While l'imparfait is used for events that you would would mark without a start and end time.

Even though this should be a basic concept, or rather a concept covered perhaps at the A2 level, I never quite learned the difference. That's because I thought of l'imparfait as corresponding to the past progressive tense in English or habitual actions with the use of "used to". I have to say this difference is difficult to get used to. I tried doing the exercises in the textbook - there were 10 of them - and I got 70%.

I also learned about using l'imparfait avec depuis to indicate that an action has been going on in the past until some other event took place. An example would be elle était enceinte depuis janvier quand elle a perdu son bébé "she had been pregnant since January when she lost her baby". This section of the chapter covered both indicative and interrogative sentences of this type, including how to make an indicative sentence into an interrogative and vice versa. I found this section easier to understand and grasp.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-03, 9:30

Last week, we learned about le verbe irrégulier recevoir, les pronoms demonstratifs, and le comparatif et le superlatif de l'adverbe. I already knew about recevoir and how to conjugate it (so far in the book they only show the present tense, the past participle, and the imperfect for verb forms). But I did learn about the verbs apercevoir 'to catch a glimpse of', s'apercevoir de 'to realize, to become aware of', and décevoir 'to disappoint'. That last one was a little hard for me because it looks similar to " to deceive".

With les pronoms demonstratifs, I knew the forms celui/celle/ceux/celles as well as the suffixes -ci/-là and ceci/cela/ça, but apparently I never quite realized the first four were just different forms of the same word. I'm not quite sure why; I'm aware that French has gender and number agreement, and when using adjectives I try to use the correct form all the time. But maybe I didn't quite know this applied to demonstratives as well, or perhaps I learned these forms early in my French journey and never made the connection. Either way, it was good to be reminded of them as well as have to go through examples using them.

The same more or less applies to the comparative and superlative forms of the adverb: I knew about them, but it was good to review them. In class the prof covered both comparative/superlative for adverbs and adjectives. I was right about the gaps in my knowledge from being self-taught through a hodepodge of resources. In this case I knew I could say things like plus vite or moins grande but I never thought of it as a grammatical rule. I also never understood the difference between meilleur[i] and [i]mieux, and have frequently mixed them up on here only to have Vijay or Dormouse correct me.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-03, 10:11

I want to add one last thing: the new vocabulary I've been learning in French class.

The chapter we're on in the text is La famille, so for all the grammar stuff I mentioned, the exercises and examples have been about family. I started using Anki to learn all the vocab, and I created a deck specifically for my class. I decided to include any words I learn in class such as words my prof uses or teaches. Actually, one thing my prof mentioned in the last class was how French has a formal and familiar word for almost all words. Which explained why I kept seeing on WordReference or Wiktionary some words with the addendum "familiar" enclosed in brackets beside the word. An example of this would be kiffer which is the familiar term for aimer. According to my prof these familiar words aren't slang, nor are they dialectal.

Noms / Nouns:
[flag=]fr[/flag] une alliance wedding ring
[flag=]fr[/flag] les attaches (f.) ties
[flag=]fr[/flag] une auberge inn
[flag=]fr[/flag] un avortement abortion
[flag=]fr[/flag] une bague ring
[flag=]fr[/flag] un bixi rented bicycle
[flag=]fr[/flag] une blonde girlfriend
[flag=]fr[/flag] une chandelle candle
[flag=]fr[/flag] chien, chienne (male, female) dog
[flag=]fr[/flag] un comportement behaviour
[flag=]fr[/flag] un convive guest
[flag=]fr[/flag] conjoint/conjointe de fait common-law husband/wife
[flag=]fr[/flag] les courses (f) shopping
[flag=]fr[/flag] deuil mourning ([flag=]fr[/flag] être en deuil to be in mourning)
[flag=]fr[/flag] un devoir homework
[flag=]fr[/flag] une étape stage
[flag=]fr[/flag] un faire-part wedding announcement
[flag=]fr[/flag] les félicitations (f.) congratulations
[flag=]fr[/flag] les fiançailles (f.) engagement
[flag=]fr[/flag] une gaffe blunder
[flag=]fr[/flag] une gerbe bouquet
[flag=]fr[/flag] les larmes (f.) tears
[flag=]fr[/flag] une maladresse clumsiness
[flag=]fr[/flag] un mari husband
[flag=]fr[/flag] un ménage housecleaning
[flag=]fr[/flag] une naissance birth
[flag=]fr[/flag] les noces (f.) wedding (my prof said that the singular can also be used to refer to the wedding, although Wiktionary seems to indicate it's only the plural form)
[flag=]fr[/flag] une nounou nanny
[flag=]fr[/flag] un orage storm
[flag=]fr[/flag] une valie luggage
[flag=]fr[/flag] un vernissage inauguration
[flag=]fr[/flag] un veuf, une veuve widower, widow
[flag=]fr[/flag] un voeu wish

Adjectifs / Adjectives:
[flag=]fr[/flag] célibataire/célibataires single [sing./pl.]
[flag=]fr[/flag] dispendieux/dispendieuse/dispendieux/dispendieuses expensive [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.]
[flag=]fr[/flag] enceint/enceinte/enceints/enceintes pregnant [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.] (according to Wiktionary, the masculine forms are used when talking about animals where the male carries the baby, such as the seahorse)
[flag=]fr[/flag] ému/émue/émus/émues touched (in an emotional sense) [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.]
[flag=]fr[/flag] fiancé/fiancée/fiancés/fiancées engaged [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.] ([flag=]fr[/flag] être fiancé à to be engaged to)

Verbes / Verbs:
[flag=]fr[/flag] accoucher to give birth
[flag=]fr[/flag] apparaître to appear
[flag=]fr[/flag] attendre un enfant to expect
[flag=]fr[/flag] se faire avorter to have an abortion ([flag=]fr[/flag] avorter to abort)
[flag=]fr[/flag] clavarder to chat (according to Wiktionary, this is a French Canadianism portmanteau of clavard and bavarder, and is used specifically to mean Internet chat or chatting via typing / the keyboard)
[flag=]fr[/flag] déménager to move
[flag=]fr[/flag] dépense to spend
[flag=]fr[/flag] éclater to break out, to burst
[flag=]fr[/flag] élever un enfant to bring up a child
[flag=]fr[/flag] s'engueuler to have a row, to quarrel
[flag=]fr[/flag] s'entendre avec to get along with
[flag=]fr[/flag] parcourir to travel
[flag=]fr[/flag] rêver to dream
[flag=]fr[/flag] réagir to react
[flag=]fr[/flag] sentir to smell
[flag=]fr[/flag] se sentir to feel
[flag=]fr[/flag] s'ennuyer to be bored
[flag=]fr[/flag] s'impliquer to involve
[flag=]fr[/flag] se rencontrer to meet
[flag=]fr[/flag] ressentir to feel

Préposition / Preposition:
[flag=]fr[/flag] sauf except

Expressions / Expressions:
[flag=]fr[/flag] tout à coup suddenly
[flag=]fr[/flag] tomber amoureux/amoureuse de to fall in love with
[flag=]fr[/flag] habiter avec to live with
[flag=]fr[/flag] vivre en concubinage, vivre en union libre to live common-law

Proverbe / Proverb:
[flag=]fr[/flag] Qui se ressemble, s'assemble Birds of a feather flock together

PS. The text En bons termes is a Canadian book, published by a Toronto publisher. So some of the vocabulary is specifically Canadian or Quebecois French. Also, for the adjectives, I added all the forms; the text only shows the singular form(s).
Last edited by dEhiN on 2017-06-06, 13:58, edited 1 time in total.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-03, 10:45

I split the vocabulary up, so now I'm going to list les membres de ma famille 'family members' as well as some terms I've learned in class. Most of the family terms were familiar to me, though some were new. All the other terms are ones that were new to me.

Les membres de ma famille / Family members:
[flag=]fr[/flag] un père father
[flag=]fr[/flag] un papa dad
[flag=]fr[/flag] une mère mother
[flag=]fr[/flag] une maman mom
[flag=]fr[/flag] un frère brother
[flag=]fr[/flag] une soeur sister
[flag=]fr[/flag] une nièce niece
[flag=]fr[/flag] un neveu nephew
[flag=]fr[/flag] un cousin, une cousine cousin
[flag=]fr[/flag] une tante aunt
[flag=]fr[/flag] une tata aunt (familiar)
[flag=]fr[/flag] un oncle uncle
[flag=]fr[/flag] un tonton uncle (familiar)
[flag=]fr[/flag] un grand-père grandfather
[flag=]fr[/flag] une grande-mère grandmother
[flag=]fr[/flag] un beau-père father-in-law, stepfather
[flag=]fr[/flag] une belle-mère mother-in-law, stepmother
[flag=]fr[/flag] un beau-frère brother-in-law, stepbrother
[flag=]fr[/flag] une belle-soeur sister-in-law, stepsister
[flag=]fr[/flag] cousin germain, cousine germaine first cousin*

Autres termes / Other terms:
[flag=]fr[/flag] ça craint! that sucks
[flag=]fr[/flag] craindre (argot) to suck (slang)
[flag=]fr[/flag] une soutenance support, defense
[flag=]fr[/flag] sur le point de on the verge
[flag=]fr[/flag] le cheval de Troie Trojan Horse
[flag=]fr[/flag] le jour férié holiday, day off work
[flag=]fr[/flag] accro (à quelque chose) addicted (to something)
[flag=]fr[/flag] postuler pour un travail to apply for a job
[flag=]fr[/flag] faire une demande pour un visa to apply for a visa
[flag=]fr[/flag] un conseil scolaire school board
[flag=]fr[/flag] une banlieue suburb
[flag=]fr[/flag] une climatisation air conditioning
[flag=]fr[/flag] avoir horreur de to hate, (lit.) to have horror of (my prof said, in his estimation, this is the highest degree of hate you could express in French)
[flag=]fr[/flag] un marais marsh
[flag=]fr[/flag] une terre marécageuse marshy land
[flag=]fr[/flag] causer to talk (familiar)
[flag=]fr[/flag] une maire mayor
[flag=]fr[/flag] une mairie / un hôtel de ville city hall, civic centre
[flag=]fr[/flag] se mettre to start
[flag=]fr[/flag] changer d'avis to change one's mind
[flag=]fr[/flag] arrondir to round up
[flag=]fr[/flag] arrondir les fins de mois to make ends meet
[flag=]fr[/flag] un loyer rent
[flag=]fr[/flag] se louer to rent
[flag=]fr[/flag] un état providence welfare state
[flag=]fr[/flag] une gestion management
[flag=]fr[/flag] un givre frost
[flag=]fr[/flag] une glace ice cream, ice (I knew the 'ice cream' meaning, but not 'ice')
[flag=]fr[/flag] un verglas icy patch, black ice
[flag=]fr[/flag] congeler to freeze in a fridge/freezer
[flag=]fr[/flag] geler to freeze, to congeal, to be freezing
[flag=]fr[/flag] une femme au foyer housewife
[flag=]fr[/flag] une inondation flood
[flag=]fr[/flag] une navette shuttle
[flag=]fr[/flag] faire la navette to commute
[flag=]fr[/flag] se rendre compte to realize
[flag=]fr[/flag] une gaufre waffle (food)
[flag=]fr[/flag] un gaufre gopher

*I'm not sure why the use of germain(e) as an adjective to indicate "first". I tried googling it but couldn't find anything.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

הענט

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby הענט » 2017-06-04, 8:01

I was gonna say that une blonde was Canadian French, but I see you've already mentioned it. :)


Btw. Yesterday I caught a glimpse of the Canadian movie Mommy. When I heard the spoken language I was like wtf? Canadian French or Québécois has a slightly different phonology, right? Plus it seems they throw in some English words like loser every now and then.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-04, 14:44

Dr. House wrote:Btw. Yesterday I caught a glimpse of the Canadian movie Mommy. When I heard the spoken language I was like wtf? Canadian French or Québécois has a slightly different phonology, right? Plus it seems they throw in some English words like loser every now and then.

I've never seen that movie, although a Canadian movie I have seen is Bon Cop, Bad Cop. It's an English-French movie, and the sequel is coming out in theatres soon. (Well, I guess in theatres here in Canada!)

Yeah Canadian French has a different phonology. There is also supposed to be a difference between Canadian French and Quebecois French. I'm not sure what the differences are exactly, and to what extent. For example, I know that there is also Acadian French which would fall under Canadian French. I also know that the French communities in the province of Ontario have their own flag.

As for English words, yeah Quebec French uses quite a few English words. Some are just said like in English or with a French accent. And then others, such as some verbs, are conjugated the French way. I remember talking to a Quebecer who argued with me about how France French also has English words too, just different ones. And he is correct: there are some words where the French French word is a calque or borrowing from the English word but the Quebec word is an actual French word. One example I can think of is le parking (France French) and le stationnement (Quebec French).

PS. Nowadays in Canada we don't really use or say Quebecker to refer to the language or the people. In fact for me it has a slightly negative connotation. We use Quebecois but pronounce it as /kwɛbɛkwɐ/.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby JackFrost » 2017-06-05, 1:56

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] une tata aunt (familiar)

Whoa. Just don't say that here or anywhere in Canada. It means "an idiot".

Yeah Canadian French has a different phonology. There is also supposed to be a difference between Canadian French and Quebecois French. I'm not sure what the differences are exactly, and to what extent. For example, I know that there is also Acadian French which would fall under Canadian French. I also know that the French communities in the province of Ontario have their own flag.

Canadian French: Quebecois French + Acadian French + a few others. And there's no difference between Quebecois and Canadian French because Canadian French is just a generic label to group up the varieties of French spoken in the country.
Neferuj paħujkij!

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby linguoboy » 2017-06-05, 14:31

Yeah, kind of how "Louisiana French" has come into use for the full range of varieties spoken there, including Louisiana Creole French. "Cajun French" is not a synonym, it's just that most surviving dialects happen to be Cajun.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-06, 5:09

JackFrost wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] une tata aunt (familiar)

Whoa. Just don't say that here or anywhere in Canada. It means "an idiot".

Thanks; that's good to know.

When I restarted learning French back in 2011, I focused on France French to the exclusion of Canadian French. But now I'm starting to learn Canadian French since I live in Canada. I still find myself instinctively choosing France French terms and phrases over Canadian ones, but hopefully that'll change over time.

linguoboy wrote:Yeah, kind of how "Louisiana French" has come into use for the full range of varieties spoken there, including Louisiana Creole French. "Cajun French" is not a synonym, it's just that most surviving dialects happen to be Cajun.

I never knew that Cajun French and Creole French are different. In fact, in general I always thought that Creole and Cajun when referring to Louisiana were synonyms. I was at the fast-food restaurant Popeyes Lousiana Kitchen recently and saw some stuff written on the wall murals about Creole cooking and Cajun cooking and how they are two different things. That was an eye-opener for me.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-06, 10:22

dEhiN wrote:I never knew that Cajun French and Creole French are different.

Yeah, they're completely different (though lots of people confuse the two, which must be really frustrating for native speakers of either of these). Louisiana originally referred to a large chunk of land that was controlled by France before the US bought it by means of the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. Cajun French originated from when French-speakers were kicked out of Acadia (Acadien > 'Cadien > Cajun) and is the product of mixing their variety of French with the variety/ies already spoken in Louisiana at the time. By contrast, Louisiana Creole French is a French-based creole rather than a variety of French. It's spoken by people from a pretty wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, notably including black people. Both are pretty endangered now, like most minority languages in the US.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-06, 10:38

vijayjohn wrote:By contrast, Louisiana Creole French is a French-based creole rather than a variety of French. It's spoken by people from a pretty wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, notably including black people. Both are pretty endangered now, like most minority languages in the US.

What are some of the other influences on LCF? Also, if it's a creole spoken by people from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, is there an acrolect? What factor(s) determined the acrolect in the past, or perhaps determines it now? In other words, what keeps the mesolects and/or basilects from deteriorating into mutually unintelligible creoles that are loosely French-based?
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-06, 11:32

dEhiN wrote:What are some of the other influences on LCF?

Spanish and Native American in particular (there's also some English influence on Louisiana Creole French). Apparently, relatively late immigrants to New Orleans like Irish, Germans, and Italians also married Creoles.
Also, if it's a creole spoken by people from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, is there an acrolect?

My understanding is that when we're talking about creoles, it only makes sense to talk about an acrolect when the dominant language in the area where it's spoken is also the one the creole is based on, perhaps in part because while a creole isn't a variety of that language, it can easily be mistaken for one, to the point where its own speakers aren't necessarily aware that they're speaking something other than the acrolect and the acrolect can actually endanger the creole via decreolization. So historically, the acrolect would have clearly been some variety of French (perhaps Cajun French!), but this is no longer the case AFAIK because the dominant language everywhere in the US is English. Louisiana Creole French is obviously not a variety of English!

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-06, 14:33

[flag=]fr[/flag] C'est les nouveaux mots que j'ai appris de la séance 3 :
[flag=]en[/flag] Here are the new words I learned from class #3:

[flag=]fr[/flag] un bouchon traffic jam; cork
[flag=]fr[/flag] un embouteillage bottleneck (for a bottle & for traffic); gridlock
[flag=]fr[/flag] la mise en bouteille bottled
[flag=]fr[/flag] un réchauffement warm-up
[flag=]fr[/flag] une formation training
[flag=]fr[/flag] être agité to act up
[flag=]fr[/flag] habillé/habillée/habillés/habilléees dressed up [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.]
[flag=]fr[/flag] une main verte green thumb
[flag=]fr[/flag] un bricolage DIY project
[flag=]fr[/flag] une pelouse lawn
[flag=]fr[/flag] enfin finally
[flag=]fr[/flag] un siège seat
[flag=]fr[/flag] parmi among
[flag=]fr[/flag] le plus [superlative form of "beaucoup"]
[flag=]fr[/flag] le moindre [superlative form of "un peu"]
[flag=]fr[/flag] un jeu de mots pun
[flag=]fr[/flag] une séance session

[flag=]fr[/flag]
Quelques avis :
1) Je ne suis pas certain si la meilleure traduction d'un bricolage serait « DIY project » .
2) Selon mon professeur, le mot noces est seulement un mot canadien et en France le mariage.
3) J'apprenais le pronom dont mais pas complètement. Je m'étais confus par quand il faut nécessaire d'utiliser dont. Ou bien je ne suis pas certain quels mots anglais je dois écrire à la carte Anki parce que Wiktionary et WordReference donnent plusieurs traductions.
4) Le vernissage est utilisée seulement ou habituellement pour le début d'un événement des arts.

[flag=]en[/flag]
Some notes:
1) I'm not sure if the best translation of "un bricolage" would be DIY project.
2) My professor told us that "noces" is a Canadian French word for marriage, and that in France they use "le mariage".
3) I learned the pronoun "dont", or at least my professor used it in class and after class I looked up the meaning. But I'm confused on when exactly to use it. I used both Wiktionary and WordReference to look up the meaning in English, and between the two resources there were quite a few meanings. I wasn't even sure what to put for my Anki card!
4) According to my professor "le vernissage" is used either solely or mostly for the inauguration of an arts event.
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-06-06, 22:45

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] une maire mayor
Maire is either masculine or feminine.

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] se louer to rent
Just to clarify, se louer only translates the middle voice usage of "to rent" (i.e. "This apartment rents for $800 a month.")

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] un gaufre gopher
New word for me! :D

dEhiN wrote:*I'm not sure why the use of germain(e) as an adjective to indicate "first". I tried googling it but couldn't find anything.
Germain is being used to mean "born to a sibling", in this case, the sibling of a parent.

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] C'est Voilà les nouveaux mots que j'ai appris de la séance 3 :


dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] habillé/habillée/habillés/habilléees dressed up [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.]
A typooo? :P

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] un siège seat
Also "headquarters".

dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] le moindre [superlative form of "un peu"]
A native speaker should verify this, but I think (le/la) moindre is very limited and is in fact the comparative/superlative of petit. The comparative/superlative of un peu is (le/la) moins.

Moindre also seems to be used more for absolute superlatives, like, Je ne veux pas entendre le moindre son. "I don't want to hear the slightest sound." For making comparisons, (le/la) plus petit(e) is more common (e.g. Benjamin était le plus petit de mes camarades de classe. "Benjamin was the smallest of my classmates.").


dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag]
Quelques avis :
1) Je ne suis pas certain si la meilleure traduction d'un bricolage serait « DIY project » .
C'est la traduction correcte. Il y a aussi "DIY" en général.

dEhiN wrote:2) Selon mon professeur, le mot noces est seulement un mot canadien et en France on dit le mariage.
Pas autant que je sache. Je vois "noces" assez souvent en lisant des journaux français.

dEhiN wrote:3) J'ai appris le pronom dont mais pas complètement. J'avais des doutes sur les contextes où il faut utiliser dont. Ou bien Je ne suis même pas certain quels mots anglais je dois écrire à sur la carte Anki parce que Wiktionary et WordReference en donnent plusieurs traductions.
C'est parce que "dont" a plusieurs significations. :) J'explique en anglais.

Dont is first of all the relative equivalent of the pronoun en, so it replaces many phrases involving "de [noun]". For example, we can unpack each of the following sentences in two steps:

A) Je vais décrire le pays dont je viens. (I will describe the country I come from.)

1. Je vais décrire le pays. J'en viens.
2. Je vais décrire le pays. Je viens du pays.

B) Elle a trouvé un livre dont elle ne connaissait pas l'auteur. (She found a book whose author she didn't know.)

1. Elle a trouvé un livre. Elle n'en connaissait pas l'auteur.
2. Elle a trouvé un livre. Elle ne connaissait pas l'auteur du livre.

C) Il aime beaucoup les livres Harry Potter, dont il a lu cinq. (He really likes the Harry Potter books, of which he's read five.)

1. Il aime beaucoup les livres Harry Potter. Il en a lu cinq.
2. Il aime beaucoup les livres Harry Potter. Il a lu cinq des livres Harry Potter.

Like en, it doesn't replace phrases governed by compound prepositions that end with de, like à côté de. Instead, use duquel / de laquelle / desquels / desquelles (e.g. la table à côté de laquelle je suis assis "the table I'm sitting next to").

Dont is also used in a way that normally gets translated as "including" or a clause beginning with "of whom". You might see the sentence: Il y avait 20 personnes dans l'autobus, dont trois enfants., which could be translated as "There were 20 people in the bus, including three children." or "There were 20 people in the bus, of whom three were children."

For your Anki card, I'd suggest putting "whose, of whom, of which; including". WordReference also gives "to whom", but that feels like overkill to me. It happens that French uses de in some places where English uses "to", like proche de vs. close to, which is an issue separate from dont.

dEhiN wrote:4) Le vernissage est utilisée seulement ou habituellement pour le début d'un événement des arts.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-08, 10:36

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] se louer to rent
Just to clarify, se louer only translates the middle voice usage of "to rent" (i.e. "This apartment rents for $800 a month.")

Merci pour l'explication. Je n'étais pas sûr la différence entre louer et se louer.

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] un gaufre gopher
New word for me! :D

I saw it when I was looking up the correct spelling of une gaufre.

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:*I'm not sure why the use of germain(e) as an adjective to indicate "first". I tried googling it but couldn't find anything.
Germain is being used to mean "born to a sibling", in this case, the sibling of a parent.

But why? Or rather, is the word related to "germanic"? Because it looks similar enough and I guess I thought there was a connection, which was what confused me: what does germanic have to do with siblings and cousins?

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] C'est Voilà les nouveaux mots que j'ai appris de la séance 3 :

I need to get more comfortable with voilà; I understand it when I see or hear it, but it's not part of my regular French vocabulary.

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] habillé/habillée/habillés/habilléees dressed up [m.sing./f.sing./m.pl./f.pl.]
A typooo? :P

Oui, t'as raison, c'est une faute de frappe !

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] un siège seat
Also "headquarters".

Merci. Peut-il signifie « seat » dans un sens littéral, comme « il y a douze sièges dans cette salle de classe » ?

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] le moindre [superlative form of "un peu"]
A native speaker should verify this, but I think (le/la) moindre is very limited and is in fact the comparative/superlative of petit. The comparative/superlative of un peu is (le/la) moins.

Maybe it can be the superlative of both? According to Wiktionary, le moindre can mean "the smallest, slightest, the least". Wouldn't "the least" be the superlative of "a bit", while "the smallest" the superlative of "little"?
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-06-08, 10:40

dEhiN wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:[flag=]fr[/flag] le moindre [superlative form of "un peu"]
A native speaker should verify this, but I think (le/la) moindre is very limited and is in fact the comparative/superlative of petit. The comparative/superlative of un peu is (le/la) moins.

Maybe it can be the superlative of both? According to Wiktionary, le moindre can mean "the smallest, slightest, the least". Wouldn't "the least" be the superlative of "a bit", while "the smallest" the superlative of "little"?

En fait, tu as raison ! Selon cet article le superlatif de petit/petite sont les deux le/la moindre et le/la plus petit/petite.
Native: (en-ca)
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-08, 12:30

dEhiN wrote:Or rather, is the word related to "germanic"?

Nope. German comes from a Latin word Germānus, and germain (like germane in English) comes from another unrelated Latin word germānus that just happens to be identical! (Germane was originally actually a variant of the now-obsolete term german that just happened to survive, and brother-german for example used to mean a full brother as opposed to a half- or stepbrother).


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