TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-06-12, 17:03

@Saim: yes, with Lenni now I'm fine but it wasn't immediate... It took me time to mature the thing and understand.
About Portuguese, they just omit the subject (like Italian) so it's okay to understand, as they never omit the verb, it's all right to understand which person it is about. :wink:

@Levike: thank you for ban-ba-ból :D Ból, I understand :P but Ba-Ban I think is a deeper problem as I also have it in English :( French doesn't make that kind of distinction, it's "dans" for everyone :D

I actually thought: with "ba", there is a movement, with "ban", there is no movement

A kutya a kertben = the dog IS in the garden
A kutya a kertbe megy = the dog goes in the garden

But my Hungarian teacher told me it wasn't a safe rule :?
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Levike » 2016-06-12, 17:15

I found an even better idea:

A kutya a kertben megy =/= A kutya a kert felé megy
(The dog is going in the garden =/= The dog is going towards the garden)

A kutya megy a kertbe = A kutya megy a kert felé
(The dog is going into the garten = The dog is going towards the garden)

The first 2 sentences are not equal, but the last two have the same meaning.

Because -ba/-be (into) is about the direction something is heading to, exactly like felé (towards).
While -ban/-ben has nothing to do with direction.

Aranyszabály: If you can replace "in" with "towards" then use "ba/be". :yep:
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-06-12, 20:41

Levike wrote:Because -ba/-be (into) is about the direction something is heading to, exactly like felé (towards).
While -ban/-ben has nothing to do with direction.


Now, this must be reasonable enough :mrgreen: I'll go with the direction explanation 8-)
(Writing it down right now on my notebook).

Nagyon köszönöm és holnap "találkozunk" azért, a napi kerdés :mrgreen:
(see you tomorrow for the daily question)
(I'll go back on my thread because I'm really annoyed with the "for", "in order to", "so that"...) (sometimes azért, sometimes -nak... driving me crazy!)
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Levike » 2016-06-13, 9:55

france-eesti wrote:Writing it down right now on my notebook.

Hány oldalt írtál már a füzetedbe? :)

Nekem is volt egy kis füzet, amikor spanyolul tanultam, de csak új szavakat írtam le oda.
Nagyon köszönöm és holnap "találkozunk" azért, a napi kerdésért :mrgreen:
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-06-13, 11:05

Nem nagyon... csak 35 odalt írtám (de a füzett az észttel megosztok, és is egy kicsit a litvániaval) :D
Szerintem, ez egy jól mód azért, memorizálni dologokat.
nyelvtan szabályokat írok, és példákat (sok mondatot amit adtál nekem a füzetembe) :D

Te csak szavakat írtál? Hiszem, is egy jól ötlet. Hiányzik nagyon magyar szójegyzék :(
(Túl nehéz nekem a magyar szójegyzék!!)

A szálamba most megyek :D
(I go to my thread now)
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Irusia » 2016-06-28, 22:12

france-eesti wrote:
Levike wrote:So you miss Ukrainian grammar and want to get a flashback? :mrgreen:


Ukrainian will be disappointed... I can't remember a thing :( Lithuanian will have to play all alone there :para:
I'm not quite sure this is the same, somehow. I expect Lithuanian declensions to be slightly easier than Hungarian's... But I can no longer compare with Ukrainian unfortunately. And I think Lithuanian is more Baltic than Slavic (but I'm too "new" there to affirm that) :hmm:


Did you learn Ukrainian?

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Osias » 2016-06-29, 2:40

france-eesti wrote:No Zahir tem-se de ver mais do que a história mesma. E a obsessão de recuperar o que se perdeu... E deve se ler quando se sente nessa situação para perceber o vázio e o desespero.
Adoro essa frase que aparece na cobertura :

"Tive de a perder para entender que o sabor das coisas recuperadas é o mel mais doce que podemos experimentar."

Mas também sei que cada leitor percebe da sua maneira os livros do Paulo Coelho.
O Alquimista, gostei claro, mas não tanto como esperava. Leu outros livros deles dos que gostou muito?

Gostei de Brida
 (es) Gracias por las correcciones
 (ca) Gràcies per les correccions
 (sv) Tack för korrigeringarna
 (en-us) Thank you for your corrections
 (ja) ありがとう
 (pt-BR) Obrigado porcaria nenhuma, é você quem está errado!

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-06-29, 11:58

Irusia wrote:Did you learn Ukrainian?


Dobre deny :D
Yes, I learnt Ukrainian for 6 months in University in France. But I almost forgot everything.
I had a very, very good teacher, pretty old as I was his last class before retirement and he did his best but 10 years afterwards I can only (just) read cyrillic writing. But I loved those classes 8-)

Osias wrote:Gostei de Brida


Obrigada por essa informação 8-) vou ver onde na Franca posso encontrar esse livro. Não é fácil encontrar livros brasileiros sem a traducção aquí :(
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Osias » 2016-06-29, 17:40

Mas e se comprar pela internet?
 (es) Gracias por las correcciones
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 (sv) Tack för korrigeringarna
 (en-us) Thank you for your corrections
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 (pt-BR) Obrigado porcaria nenhuma, é você quem está errado!

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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-07-06, 11:09

Osias wrote:Mas e se comprar pela internet?


Claro, isso posso fazer.

So, just after I had my first chance to experience Hungarian with real Hungarian people, I need to update.

 (hu) :D
Well, yeah. I swear I did my very best to speak Hungarian each time I could, but:
- either they didn't understand me (the shame, the shame!) :oops:
- either they did and answered in English as I trully do not possess the right accent
- either they answered in Hungarian and I didn't understand
- either they answered in Hungarian and I understood 2 minutes later when I had already made a quick English excuse.
So... :roll:

lots of fun ahead of me! :silly:
I've warned my Conversation Exchange teacher (yeah, I was lucky enough to meet him in person there) that there is much more to come and that I would continue learning after my travel to Hungary. And I will! 8-) I love to do Hungarian and next time I see Budapest (or Budapest sees me) I'll speak as an... A1? :oops: okay, let's try!

 (en) :whistle:
well as I couldn't speak in Hungarian all the time at least I spoke English, still no problem. That's okay.
I'm also halfway through reporting the corrections my proof-reader put on my book and sometimes I feel very dumb when I see the stupid mistakes I do (especially in "in/on/upon/at/with/for..." all the prepositions). Gotta go back to the basics and I can't wait for my daughter's first English lessons to have everything refreshed 8-)

 (pt) :doggy:
In a big, big danger. As Osias kindly fixes my mistakes, I can see how bad my Portuguese is starting to be. I'll need a catch up once Hungarian is steadier in my poor pea-size brain as we say in French. And maybe pay a real visit to my friend Paulo Coelho (and not just SAY I'll do it, but actually DO IT).

 (lt) :| not giving it the time and attention it deserves. But still think it sounds wonderful. I expect to have more free time in summer to really get into it. :D
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Osias » 2016-07-06, 13:54

Eita, desanima, não!

Sugiro além de livro ler tuítes em português com alguma frequência.
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Levike » 2016-07-06, 14:26

france-eesti wrote:Well, yeah. I swear I did my very best to speak Hungarian each time I could, but

Legalább tetszett nekik, hogy magyarul beszéltél? :)

Did they seem to appreciate you speaking it at least?
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-07-06, 21:05

Levike wrote:Legalább tetszett nekik, hogy magyarul beszéltél? :)

Did they seem to appreciate you speaking it at least?


Nem tudom... Nem gondolom hogy komolyan vettek 8-)
I don't know... I don't think they took it seriously.

Talán legközelebb amikor egy naaaaaaaaaagy A1 leszek
Maybe later when I'm a biiiiiiiiiiiiig A1 :rotfl:
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Lumilintu » 2016-08-10, 20:11

france-eesti wrote: (et) Estonian
Having lots of afterthoughts. This second finno-ugric language refuses to let my mind in peace, though I told it "olgu nii", leave things are they are and are meant to be... So I thought I would give it another chance after July or August. And I think it sounds adorable. If only they had a direct object... :roll:

france-eesti wrote:[...] And at least you have a direct object (unlike  (et) :mrgreen: )


Sorry, but I'm confused. What makes you think that Estonian doesn't have a direct object or rather, what do you refer to by "direct object"? :para:
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Levike » 2016-08-10, 21:09

Lumilintu wrote:What makes you think that Estonian doesn't have a direct object or rather, what do you refer to by "direct object"? :para:

Maybe she's referring to the Accusative case.
From what I've seen here on the wiki page it seems the Estonian Accusative looks much like the Nominative one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_grammar

Maybe I'm wrong. How would you say in Estonian "kutya" and then "kutyát"?
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Lumilintu » 2016-08-11, 6:18

Levike wrote:
Lumilintu wrote:What makes you think that Estonian doesn't have a direct object or rather, what do you refer to by "direct object"? :para:

Maybe she's referring to the Accusative case.
From what I've seen here on the wiki page it seems the Estonian Accusative looks much like the Nominative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_grammar

Maybe I'm wrong. How would you say in Estonian "kutya" and then "kutyát"?


Yes, I was wondering if she's referring to 1) the Hungarian definite/indefinite conjugation or to 2) that Estonian direct object can take more than one case. As for 1), I wouldn't understand why anybody would want two different kind of conjugations, it only complicates things. When it comes to 2), yes, the (direct) object can take more than one case, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, more the contrary. We differentiate between full-object and part-object, so our use of different cases for the object is similar to the Hungarian verbal prefix meg.
The part-object is always in partitive case. The full-object takes the genitive form in singular and the nominative in plural. In Finnish it works the same way and they call the full-object case accusative, but in Estonian linguistics we don't do that as there are no separate accusative forms.
As for the kutya, the nominative would be koer, the partitive koera and the accusative/genetive koera (sometimes genitive and partitive are identical). The plural forms woud be koeri (partitive) and koerad (accusative/nominative).
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Re: TAC 2016 - france-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-08-11, 7:13

Szia & Tere, sorry to come late to answer this!
Indeed, my main problem when I started on Estonian was the partial object. It seemed too complicated for me to have to think about the object as a partial or a total one, I couldn't get used to it... And believe it or not, that's the thing that made me give up Estonian :cry: Because this was too hard for me.

For no reason, I feel the definite/indefinite conjugations Hungarian has is less complicated as it mostly makes sense - only sometimes I Wonder if I should use "látok" or "látom" for example, with "teged" or "Leviket" or "valamit" but once I've found out and reminded, that'll be okay.

The "meg" is indeed more complicated for me as I don't know where to use it and when to separate it from the verb.

Else, I find that Estonian's grammar is easier than Hungarian's grammar - more intuitive and less tricky, but I didn't go that far - the double infinitive was also a problem for me.
Now I started Lithuanian but I won't go that far anyway - and I won't lie, it's a comfort for me that both Hungarian and Lithuanian can use accusative for the direct object. But Estonian is always in my head and I'm sure one day I'll be back to it :D
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby Lumilintu » 2016-08-11, 8:18

Lumilintu wrote:As for the kutya, the nominative would be koer, the partitive koera and the accusative/genetive koera (sometimes genitive and partitive are identical). The plural forms woud be koeri (partitive) and koerad (accusative/nominative).


I just thought I should add another example which makes the difference more clear:
raamat 'book' (nominative singular)
Lugesin raamatut (partitive singular). 'I read a/the book'
Lugesin raamatu (genitive singular) läbi. 'I read a/the book (and I finished it).'
Lugesin raamatuid (partitive plural). 'I read books'
Lugesin raamatud (nominative plural) läbi. 'I read (the) books (and I finished them).'
In all of those sentences, the book is the direct object, it's just that we differentiate between part- and full-object. In that case, the difference is quite clear, but you're right, France-eesti, sometimes it's hard to decide which one to use. But then again, I think the function is almost the same as the Hungarian meg. And in many other aspects Estonian grammar is easier than Hungarian grammar. :whistle:

Edit: The two infinitives might seem confusing at first, but they really aren't that tricky once you get a feeling for them.
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby france-eesti » 2016-08-11, 8:36

Aitäh süür! :D
Yes, I remember the basics of the partitive/genitive difference. What was more tricky for me was, with "feelings". I understand your use of "meeldina" (it's like in French "plaire" or Hungarian "tetszik") so using illative "mulle meeldib" is okay. But when you "armastan" something/someone, why partitive? And when you want a dog, or when you want a kringel, is it also a partial object?
And when you "see" something, or "hear" someone or some music, I guess then it's partial object... I think if one day I go back to Estonian, the way I'll learn it will be "always use partitive except in some special cases". Do you have an idea of which one is more used, is it something like a 50/50 or is there a 70/30 in favor of partitive?

(sorry - I'm a statistic girl haha)

There is no doubt Estonian is easier than Hungarian :D But for some reason my brains didn't stand being shared between Estonian and Hungarian (not to mention having to leave room for Portuguese, that is slowly slipping through my fingers too). But I really love the feel of Finno-Ugric! It's new (to me) and unknown (to people around me, unfortunately) and it's really more interesting than boring Spanish or Italian that has no surprise compared with French.
Thank you for your help too! :wink: I really appreciate it.
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Re: TAC 2016 - fance-eesti (English, Portuguese, Hungarian, Estonian)

Postby ceid donn » 2016-08-11, 14:56

Keeping up your skills in several languages is a challenge, indeed. It can be very fatiguing mentally. I struggled in vain for years to keep up my German while I was learning Scottish Gaelic and progressing in French, and I had to just give up on it. Now I'm working on Irish, which is very similar to Scottish Gaelic, and Italian, which is very similar to French, and I have to spend a good amount of time "laddering"--using one language to work on the other. I translate a lot of my Irish notes into Scottish Gaelic and I'm using the Goethe Verlang French-Italian files to learn to go back and forth between French and Italian. It's almost like learning to switch between two closely related language is an additional skill I have to learn. But I can't lose my Scottish Gaelic or my French! Non non non, ça c'est inacceptable !


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