TAC Meera 2016

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby OldBoring » 2016-07-23, 16:16

The problem is not when you use [i], but when you have both [i] and some text in actual italics in the same post, which was the case in Vijay's previous post: he first typed "[i]", and then down below he typed "are" in italics.
And then everything after the first [i] would be italicised, while the second "[i]" (that he used to italicise the word) would be displayed.

Apparently when there are 2 [i]'s before a "[ /i ]"*, BBCode considers the first one as the beginning of the italics text.
Try typing

Code: Select all

[i]Text after first i [i]Text after second i[/i]

It will be all in italics from the beginning, and you'll see the second "[i]".

*Which I had to type with spaces to not fuck up all the [i]'s.

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-23, 16:29

So the source of my problems turns out to be the fact that I italicized the word "are" once in that post for emphasis! :lol:

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-07-29, 17:08

vijayjohn wrote:Basically, phonemes are what native speakers of some language think of as "different sounds." Allophones are all the sounds they actually correspond to.

Here's an example using Hindi and English (actually, I think since you know Hindi, that might help a lot when it comes to talking about phonology!). You know how Hindi has क, ख, ग, and घ, and each of those is pronounced differently? To a native speaker of Hindi, of course, each of them also sounds different. But a native speaker of English might only be able to tell the difference between two of them.

That's because in English, out of those sounds, we only really contrast two of those sounds. Kale and gale are different words in English, but the only difference between them is the first sound. If I say the word kale, the k at the beginning of that word will actually come out sounding like a ख. But if I put an s in front of it and say scale, it ends up sounding like क instead of ख. That's because even though क and ख contrast in Hindi, they don't in English.

Since Hindi contrasts all four of these sounds, they're represented by four phonemes in Hindi: /k/, /kʰ/, /g/, and /gʱ/ respectively (that's how you'd write them in IPA :)).
Each of those phonemes has one allophone: /k/ has the allophone [k], /kʰ/ has the allophone [kʰ], and so on.

But since English only contrasts two of them, they're represented by only two phonemes in English: /k/ and /g/.
/g/ in English also has only one allophone: [g].
But /k/ in English has two allophones: [k] and [kʰ].

Does that help at all? :para: Sorry, I know it's pretty complicated, and I also didn't get much sleep last night, so I don't know how much sense I'm making. :lol:


Thank you the Hindi example actually helped a lot!!
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-29, 17:10

Yay, I'm glad it helped! Thanks for letting me know! :)

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-09, 2:34

vijayjohn wrote:Yay, I'm glad it helped! Thanks for letting me know! :)


We just learned about Arabic inflectional moropholgy! And omg that was so much it made me dizzy. :cry:
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-08-13, 13:28

Meera wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Yay, I'm glad it helped! Thanks for letting me know! :)


We just learned about Arabic inflectional moropholgy! And omg that was so much it made me dizzy. :cry:

Oh! Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier! Is there anything I might be able to help you with there? :)

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-15, 16:16

vijayjohn wrote:
Meera wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Yay, I'm glad it helped! Thanks for letting me know! :)


We just learned about Arabic inflectional moropholgy! And omg that was so much it made me dizzy. :cry:

Oh! Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier! Is there anything I might be able to help you with there? :)


Well we learned that Arabic has eleven different categories of inflection, is this considered a normal amount in a language or is this a lot? If you want I can list the ones are book uses. :)
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-15, 16:36

Update:

-Write an essay for my linguistics class on MSA vs Levantine linguistically. I don't even think I understood half of what was in that paper :P I'm done the class this Thursday.

-Japanese class starts Aug.29. I am so excited and nervous. But mostly excited.

-Been reviewing Levantine and MSA. I'm halfway done haiki bi lebanani.

-I got a book called Kilma Helwa that has Egyptian lyrics and their lyrics plus biographies of the singers and grammar notes. Its really cool and giving me lots of reading practice. Its pretty fun.
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-08-15, 19:57

Meera wrote:Well we learned that Arabic has eleven different categories of inflection, is this considered a normal amount in a language or is this a lot? If you want I can list the ones are book uses. :)
I think the verbal inflections in MSA are pretty complicated. Maybe not as much as say, Russian, but more than English. Nouns are simpler (except for those goddamn broken plurals), but the root system adds another layer of complexity to it.

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Serafín » 2016-08-15, 21:16

Meera wrote:Well we learned that Arabic has eleven different categories of inflection, is this considered a normal amount in a language or is this a lot? If you want I can list the ones are book uses. :)

Hmm...

1. Number (singular, dual, plural)
2. Gender (masculine, feminine)
3. Animacy (animate, inanimate)
4. Case (nominative, accusative, oblique/genitive)
5. State / definiteness (definite, indefinite, construct)
6. Person (first, second, third)
7. Tense in MSA (past, non-past) (or Aspect in CA (perfective, imperfective))
8. Mood (indicative, subjunctive, jussive, imperative, -na energetic, -anna energetic)
9. Voice (active, passive)

I can't think of anything else. What are the other two? These are all the ones there are unless you consider the verbal forms to be inflections maybe, but that'd be weird as I think they should be considered derivations instead.

It seems like a normal amount for me. Consider that Spanish has: 1. number, 2. gender, 3. case (in personal pronouns), 4. person, 5. tense, 6. aspect, 7. mood, 8. voice.

On the other hand, Classical Chinese has only two categories: 1. person (in its personal pronouns), 2. case (in its personal pronouns). (That's right! Classical Chinese doesn't even distinguish number in its personal pronouns!)

On yet another hand, Ojibwe, a polysynthetic language, has: 1. number, 2. animacy, 3. obviation / topicality (topic marking for noun phrases), 4. possession, 5. conjunctivity (whether a verb is in a subordinate sentence), 6. tense, 7. mood, 8. aspect (note that you can have multiple aspect marking in a row, including wishing to do something, beginning doing something, doing something thoroughly, etc., so this should count as more than one), 9. valency / transitivity, 10. voice, 11. person.

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-18, 2:22

Serafín wrote:
Meera wrote:Well we learned that Arabic has eleven different categories of inflection, is this considered a normal amount in a language or is this a lot? If you want I can list the ones are book uses. :)

Hmm...

1. Number (singular, dual, plural)
2. Gender (masculine, feminine)
3. Animacy (animate, inanimate)
4. Case (nominative, accusative, oblique/genitive)
5. State / definiteness (definite, indefinite, construct)
6. Person (first, second, third)
7. Tense in MSA (past, non-past) (or Aspect in CA (perfective, imperfective))
8. Mood (indicative, subjunctive, jussive, imperative, -na energetic, -anna energetic)
9. Voice (active, passive)



The ones the author listed are:

1) Tense/Aspect
2)Person
3)Voice
4)Mood
5)Gender
6)Number
7)Case
8)Definiteness/Determiners
9)Comparison
10)Deixis
11) Humaness

It is on page 92 of the book Arabic: A linguistic Introduction by Karin C. Ryding. The annoying thing is the author doesn't give any examples of the 11 categories.
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-18, 2:25

mōdgethanc wrote:
Meera wrote:Well we learned that Arabic has eleven different categories of inflection, is this considered a normal amount in a language or is this a lot? If you want I can list the ones are book uses. :)
I think the verbal inflections in MSA are pretty complicated. Maybe not as much as say, Russian, but more than English. Nouns are simpler (except for those goddamn broken plurals), but the root system adds another layer of complexity to it.


The broken plurals are a pain. I memorize them as I learn the singulars but our book tries to make you learn the patterns and I still can't get them. :x
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Serafín » 2016-08-18, 6:12

Meera wrote:The ones the author listed are:

1) Tense/Aspect
2)Person
3)Voice
4)Mood
5)Gender
6)Number
7)Case
8)Definiteness/Determiners
9)Comparison
10)Deixis
11) Humaness

It is on page 92 of the book Arabic: A linguistic Introduction by Karin C. Ryding. The annoying thing is the author doesn't give any examples of the 11 categories.

Oh, "comparison". Yeah, I forgot about comparison (normal vs. elative for adjectives, like kabiirun and 2akbaru).

I have no idea what is meant by "deixis" though. I don't think it's haadhaa 'this' vs. dhaalika 'that', that is NOT inflection!

Note that what he calls "humanness" is what I called "animacy" in my list.
Last edited by Serafín on 2016-08-18, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-18, 15:46

Serafín wrote:
Meera wrote:The ones the author listed are:

1) Tense/Aspect
2)Person
3)Voice
4)Mood
5)Gender
6)Number
7)Case
8)Definiteness/Determiners
9)Comparison
10)Deixis
11) Humaness

It is on page 92 of the book Arabic: A linguistic Introduction by Karin C. Ryding. The annoying thing is the author doesn't give any examples of the 11 categories.

Oh, "comparison". Yeah, I forgot about comparison (normal vs. elative for adjectives, like kabiirun and 2akbaru).

I have no idea what is meant by "deixis" though. I don't think it's haadhaa 'this' vs. dhaalika 'that', that is NOT inflection! That's derivation!

Note that what he calls "humanness" is what I called "animacy" in my list.


This is is why I wish she included examples, I have no idea what she meant by deixis and how they inflect.
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-08-27, 16:11

(WARNING: This entire post is pure linguistics nerdiness! :P)

Serafín, I found this on p. 141 of this:
The literature on tense and aspect in Arabic has been dominated by the dispute on whether verbal inflection expresses Tense or only Aspect. On the one hand, Arabic traditional grammarians claim that the inflection stands for (deictic) Tense, including past and non-past (present and future). On the other hand, most western Semiticists and philologists have construed the Arabic binary opposition of verbal forms in terms of Aspect, not Tense.

Is it possible that Ryding is referring to something like this when she mentions "deixis" as opposed to "tense/aspect"?

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-08-27, 18:39

That might be what Ryding is talking about, Vijay. Unfortunately I have no idea. :oops:
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-08-27, 19:07

Meera wrote:That might be what Ryding is talking about, Vijay. Unfortunately I have no idea. :oops:

There's no shame in not being a linguistics nerd! :lol:

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Serafín » 2016-08-30, 18:16

vijayjohn wrote:(WARNING: This entire post is pure linguistics nerdiness! :P)

Serafín, I found this on p. 141 of this:
The literature on tense and aspect in Arabic has been dominated by the dispute on whether verbal inflection expresses Tense or only Aspect. On the one hand, Arabic traditional grammarians claim that the inflection stands for (deictic) Tense, including past and non-past (present and future). On the other hand, most western Semiticists and philologists have construed the Arabic binary opposition of verbal forms in terms of Aspect, not Tense.

Is it possible that Ryding is referring to something like this when she mentions "deixis" as opposed to "tense/aspect"?

Maybe, but then she mentions "aspect" separately, even though it's supposed to refer to the same "binary opposition". Who knows.

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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby Meera » 2016-09-13, 15:49

Hello everyone! This is a pretty random place to ask this question but hopefully someone can answer it here. I will maybe post it in the Arabic forum as well. Anyway in my Levantine class we learned about عم so I was wondering if عم is always used in the continuous present tense? is it like रहा/रही in Hindi?
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Re: TAC Meera 2016

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-09-13, 23:26

That's my understanding of it, yes (though probably eskandar or Saim or someone like that would know better than me ;)).


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