TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-05-16, 11:46

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with my friend from Siirt, Turkey, about the variety of Arabic spoken there.

Arabic is his 'semi'-native language. That is, he is Kurdish by origin, but because Arabic is spoken widely in Siirt, he was exposed to it a lot and can understand it well, although he stumbles when speaking it.

So, I was asking him how to say this and that, and it seems like in his variety there is no transition "old present tense -> conjuctive" and no innovative marker for the present tense, as in other Arabic dialects.

For example, "do you speak Arabic" in his dialect is "tatkallam 3arabi?", which is almost like MSA.

It looks like in Siirt, all 3 languages (Turkish, Kurdish and Arabic) are well represented and many people are bi- and tri-lingual. There is this song which is telling about the Turkish East, where the singer names a place and then tells a sentence about this place, and Siirt is described in it as "üç dil konuşan koca bir köydür" (a huge village which speaks 3 languages):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dirgcUDNGH0&t=2m13s

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-05-17, 20:58

Plans for Week 5/22-5/28
Pimsleur Eastern Arabic 3, Lessons 8-14

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-06-28, 10:34

I've fallen into a procrastination cycle again. I need to resume my studies if I want to move forward with Arabic.

The materials I am using:
1) 'Pimsleur Eastern Arabic' (Syrian dialect). I'm stuck at lesson 15/30 of the third (last) level. It should take me 2-3 weeks to finish it.

2) 'Living Arabic: A Comprehensive Introductory Course' by Munther Younes. This looks like a fun book for learning both a dialect for speaking and listening comprehension (it offers Jordanian) and MSA for reading and writing. I'm at lesson 15 out of 55.
I wonder if this Munther Younes guy is a native Arabic speaker (I don't doubt the quality of the book, just curious about his background).

3) 'Easy Arabic Reader' by Jane Wightwick (MSA). I did 12 chapters out of 37. I will maybe need to review it from the start.

This, plus some songs, should be enough for a few months ahead. Then I'll maybe do the book 'Colloquial Palestinian Arabic' by Nasser Isleem.

Also, I had a few conversations with Syrians recently. We talked about various topics, and I could understand more or less well and make myself understood. Finally I feel like my Arabic studies are paying off. This is definitely inspirational.

I also tried my Syrian dialect with a speaker from Morocco once. I wasn't even in the least hoping it was going to work, but it wasn't me who started the conversation but my Turkish friend who's also a native speaker of an Arabic dialect spoken in Turkey. And no, it didn't work at all. The guy probably grew up here in Belarus (he was also fluent, almost accentless in Russian), so while he did know his dialect (he used it to talk to his mates), he probably had very little exposure to Levantine, so he couldn't understand anything I was saying. Funny thing, my Turkish friend asked him to put little water into his coffee ('little' in his dialect is 'tute'), but the guy understood it the opposite way and put more instead.

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-06-28, 12:06

I can imagine poor languagepotato in that situation. :)
voron wrote:I wonder if this Munther Younes guy is a native Arabic speaker (I don't doubt the quality of the book, just curious about his background).

I would think so. He got his BA in English from the University of Jordan.

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby eskandar » 2017-06-29, 6:32

vijayjohn wrote:
voron wrote:I wonder if this Munther Younes guy is a native Arabic speaker (I don't doubt the quality of the book, just curious about his background).

I would think so. He got his BA in English from the University of Jordan.

And he has a completely Arab name.

Congratulations on your progress with Arabic, voron! I always admire your dedication (all the moreso because you typically study languages I'm also learning :whistle: )
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-06-29, 19:11

eskandar wrote:Congratulations on your progress with Arabic, voron! I always admire your dedication (all the moreso because you typically study languages I'm also learning :whistle: )

Thanks eskandar. I can only reply with this Turkish word borrowed from Arabic: bilmukabele. :wink:

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-02, 20:47

When I was buying döner today from a Lebanese store I asked the seller where he was from and when he said Syria, I talked in Syrian Arabic to him a bit. Then, when I found out he was from Qamishli, I switched to Kurdish and I didn't miss, he was indeed a Kurd so we talked in Kurdish a bit. He was of course surprised and couldn't believe I was local. And I felt contented that I could understand both his Arabic and his Kurdish, and had a chance to show off a bit, because why not. :)

It's interesting how my Kurdish is way better than my Arabic, both understanding and speaking, even though I invested quite little time to Kurdish. I was only enganged with Kurdish for 1 year, out of which I only intensively studied it for 3 months (at a course), and the other time I mostly listened to songs and talked to my Kurdish friends. My vocabulary is quite limited, but I know most words of everyday use like bring!, take!, put!, come here!, go away!, sit down!, stand up!, lie down! etc, while for Arabic honestly I need to think to remember how to say these (while I know some other elevated but mostly useless vocabulary).

Why is this? Perhaps because I learnt Kurdish in a (albeit somewhat limited) Kurdish speaking environment. Or maybe because Kurdish is Indo-European and words stuck easier? Or maybe just because when I study on my own my pace is too slow (seeing how I haven't done nearly anything for Arabic for the last month - it becomes especially obvious when I keep track of it).

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-02, 23:58

Here is a song in the Palestinian dialect which featured on an Israeli talents show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBiDMLgSIGo

This song became a hit on the Russian Internet because someone added misheard lyrics to it, where the word بلادي (blaadi) repeated in the refrain was "translated" as "бляди", the Russian word for "whores". Of course there is nothing like that in the original lyrics. بلادي means "my country" in Arabic. The version I linked to is subtitled with the true translation to Russian, not the misheard one.


يا بلادي جوك هادي
ما أحلاك يا بلادي
هلالك ملعب للنجمات
فيك بيتغنى الحادي

بلادي بلادي يا بلادي بلادي بلادي بلادي
Oh my country, your air/weather is mild
How beautiful you are, my country
Your crescent is a playground for stars
About you sings the cameleer.

Oh my country...


Notes:
1) أحلاك - this is the superlative of حلو plus a possessive pronoun, right? I knew the construction ما plus superlative from MSA, but I didn't know (or forgot) you can append a possessive to it.
2) In بيتغنى we can see this typical Levantine prefix ب for the habitual present tense.

I will continue tomorrow.

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby eskandar » 2017-07-03, 2:22

voron wrote:1) أحلاك - this is the superlative of حلو plus a possessive pronoun, right? I knew the construction ما plus superlative from MSA, but I didn't know (or forgot) you can append a possessive to it.

Yep. It would be أحلی without the pronoun. I think ما أحلی is used a lot in Levantine colloquial (it basically becomes ماحلی) - reminds me of another Palestinian song, which I'll post over on my own thread.

2) In بيتغنى we can see this typical Levantine prefix ب for the habitual present tense.

Egyptian, too!
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-03, 18:02

Continuation of the song يا بلادي

حسنك متله ما بيصير
وعاطيك من فضله كتير
نسر يقف ونسر يطير
فوق التلة والوادي
Your goodness, the like of it doesn't exist
And He (the Lord) gave to you from His grace a lot
An eagle stops, an eagle flies
Above the hill and the valley


Notes:
1) بيصير : the verb صار is very similar in usage to the Turkish "olmak", not only in this sentence (~senin hüsnünün gibisi olmaz) but also in other instances where I saw it.
2) نسر يقف ونسر يطير : I have translated it with the present simple, but given that ب is absent, there is some sort of modality in the meaning, something like "let an eagle stop, let an eagle fly", right?
3) ق is pronounced as hamza, just like in Syrian. It makes some words so hard to recognize (for example يقف - does she really sing that? it should be pronounced something like y'af. And فوق should be faw' . I generally like the sound of Syrian, but this sound change ق -> hamza is ugly).

Words:
نسر nisr - an eagle
تلّة talle - a hill

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-11, 18:16

I've been watching pieces of the Lebanese series MAMNOU3! (it's virtually the only Levantine series available with the subtitles) and I've learnt how to say "come in!":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArnErU6l-I0&t=0m9s

It's فوت, which also has a meaning "to pass".
فَات، يْفُوْت

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby eskandar » 2017-07-12, 7:40

voron wrote:I've been watching pieces of the Lebanese series MAMNOU3! (it's virtually the only Levantine series available with the subtitles) and I've learnt how to say "come in!":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArnErU6l-I0&t=0m9s

It's فوت, which also has a meaning "to pass".
فَات، يْفُوْت

Great find! I bet you can also track down some Levantine films with English subtitles. There are lots of great artsy Palestinian ones, at least.

Interesting that they say فوت instead of اتفضل - I wonder if the latter is too formal for a setting like this one. Another character says بتفوت هي ("she goes in") at 4:20. I don't think this verb is used at all in the same way in Egyptian. The conjugation is the same as in Lebanese, but in Egyptian it means "to pass by, to elapse" (see here for more detail), and is used for things like "last week" (الاسبوع الی فات "the week that passed"). This is closer, in my opinion, to the meaning used in MSA (فات، يَفُوت).

Do you know about the colloquial dictionary Mo3jam? It can be really useful for this kind of thing!

Damn, I'm so tempted to start messing around with Levantine Arabic. It's so interesting to compare it to Egyptian, and this series looks entertaining enough... What's your strategy ya Voron? Do you try to transcribe the series in Arabic as you watch, or just focus on comprehension?
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-12, 11:48

eskandar wrote:Great find! I bet you can also track down some Levantine films with English subtitles. There are lots of great artsy Palestinian ones, at least.

Yeah, I found several Syrian films with subtitles too. This youtube channel has some great stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-M_II ... hDxaWxYnLA

Do you know about the colloquial dictionary Mo3jam? It can be really useful for this kind of thing!

No, I didn't know it, thanks!
I've been using this dictionary: http://www.livingarabic.com/levantine-a ... ionary.php

Damn, I'm so tempted to start messing around with Levantine Arabic. It's so interesting to compare it to Egyptian, and this series looks entertaining enough... What's your strategy ya Voron? Do you try to transcribe the series in Arabic as you watch, or just focus on comprehension?

My listening comprehension sucks, so right now I just try to hear separate words based on what I read in the subtitles. I cannot watch anything without subtitles yet.

My Syrian friend advised me this series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_Al-Hara
Bab al-Hara takes place in the 1930s, a time when the Middle East was colonized by Western powers. Syria was under French control and Palestine – where some of the neighborhood men go to fight at the end of the second installment of the series – was British-occupied. Bab al-Hara depicts the last moments of Syrian society as it existed in its centuries-old Ottoman era make-up, just prior to the transition into colonial and post-colonial modernity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cadfhi55dRg

The series looks so cool and I really want to watch it, but so far it's difficult to follow the plot without subtitles.

Why is it that so many Turkish series have been subtitled and dubbed into many languages, but Levantine series haven't? :doggy:

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-12, 12:45

One more Lebanese series with English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e5QvqkHi4g

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby eskandar » 2017-07-12, 21:42

I've always wanted to watch Bab al-Hara. Definitely seems cool, but beyond my ability to understand. I wonder if there are at least MSA subtitles out there for it, or French. Or maybe you could find Turkish subtitles somewhere? :hmm: If I ever get serious about Levantine, I'll probably get a tutor to help me watch this series. Meanwhile there's this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6rOsCy9Gsc

who also has a useful blog.
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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-13, 0:19

eskandar wrote:Meanwhile there's this guy [...] who also has a useful blog.

That's my go-to guy for Arabic and the only reason why I know of almost any of the online resources I immediately associate with Arabic. I've mentioned his blog a few times around here, too. :)

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-15, 1:14

Progress
Pimsleur: 20/30

I think I will finish Pimsleur and Arabic Reader first, and then proceed to other materials (in particular, Living Arabic book).

Pimsleur is really great. I've tried it for the first time with Arabic and it really works for me because a) it fills my dead times when I walk to work and back and b) it doesn't strain my eyes - I have enough strain already working at the computer. I used to be skeptic about audio only materials, but together with some knowledge about the language (read: understanding grammar behind phrases that you hear and being more or less able to spell words) it works great.

Arabic Reader is actually no better than taking any online newspaper and trying to read it, but I've printed it and I like reading from paper.

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-17, 14:55

Some notes about the song Eskandar posted in the Arabic thread:
viewtopic.php?f=25&p=1080162#p1079939

I can understand more or less every word and grammar in the Jordanian verses. One part I don't understand:
إنو أنا بقدرأكون في كوبا لا تنساني

Does it literally say "Because I can be in كوبا, don't forget me"? What is كوبا?

An interesting thing is the passive voice with n, which is used in the last 3 lines:

عدد أيام الصمود بين تحرش و بين حرب ما بتنعد
القوة في ذاتك مش ممكن أنها تنصد
لما تبلشي تفكري بحالك ، طريقك ما بتنسد

The number of days, the steadfastness between harassment and between war, is not counted. (عَدّ - to count)
The power in yourself is not possible that it is repelled (صَدَّ - to repel)
When you start to think about yourself, your path is not blocked (سَدَّ - to block)

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby Limagne » 2017-07-18, 7:23

voron wrote:Some notes about the song Eskandar posted in the Arabic thread:
viewtopic.php?f=25&p=1080162#p1079939

I can understand more or less every word and grammar in the Jordanian verses. One part I don't understand:
إنو أنا بقدرأكون في كوبا لا تنساني

Does it literally say "Because I can be in كوبا, don't forget me"? What is كوبا?



Cuba, maybe? :D

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Re: TAC - voron (Turkish, Kurdish, Arabic)

Postby voron » 2017-07-18, 11:25

Limagne wrote:Cuba, maybe? :D

Nah, doesn't fit the context.

Limagne, hevalo, are you interested in Arabic, too? :)


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