2016-2017 blog - księżyc

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-02-14, 18:29

You basically made a similar case to what I was making, that pronunciation is separate from the formation of a standard language. You just said it better, and backed it up.

I was basically saying that by the time a language is standardized, it doesn't necessarily follow the pronunciation. Even if it does, it doesn't mean it stay that way.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-14, 18:49

księżycowy wrote:I was basically saying that by the time a language is standardised, it doesn't nessicarily follow the pronunciation. Even if it does, it doesn't mean it stay that way.

What's interesting to me is how pronunciation often ends up following the standard. As kevin says, the German norm is the result of L2 speakers from the North treating a purely written variety as a living language and concocting their own pronunciation for it. This is an extreme example, but something like this happens with all normative varieties. Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

Modern Irish is actually less subject to this than most European vernaculars since illiteracy was so widespread until recently. I suspect, though, that a lot of dialectal variant pronunciations listed in Ó Cuív's work (the basis for the pronunciations given in TY Irish) are under threat if not already replaced by closer approximations to the CO forms. I'd be interested to find out, for instance, whether people in Muskerry today still say /pəilˊəkaːn/ like their predecessors or if they've adopted a Munsterised version of féileacán instead.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-02-14, 19:05

I don't know about the specific case of Irish, but I would imagine that in general, due to the proliferation of audio media due to technology, most major and even some minor languages have essentially a standardised or normative pronunciation that accompanies the written standard. Linguoboy can correct me if I'm wrong, but for example, news reports would need to be understandable by L1 speakers of all dialects. And is it not this normative pronunciation that is generally taught to L2 speakers, at least in resources like TY and such where you are learning on your own?
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-14, 19:16

dEhiN wrote:Linguoboy can correct me if I'm wrong, but for example, news reports would need to be understandable by L1 speakers of all dialects. And is it not this normative pronunciation that is generally taught to L2 speakers, at least in resources like TY and such where you are learning on your own?

Okay; you're wrong. :D

Seriously, as I understand the policy of Raidió na Gaeltachta, everyone uses their native accents on air. In fact, more than once I've heard of people turning it off when it starts broadcasting from another Gaeltacht because they can't understand the presenters.

News reports, incidentally, are where this is least likely to happen. They're going to be written in CO, after all, which the presenters will just read in their accents. So you avoid all of the really knotty problems of lexical and grammatical variation. It's shows where they have a couple of people chatting casually in the studio where the intelligibility breaks down--if they're using the same dialectal variety, that is. When it's a mix, everyone will make more of an effort to avoid regionalisms.

This all works much better in Welsh, where the native-speaking community is more compact and there's more interregional contact. Recognition of which common words and constructions are specific to one region seems rather widespread, so there's something of a nascent koine under development. It was hoped this would happen with Irish as well, but it doesn't seem to have.

There was an attempt to develop an artificial norm in the form of the Lárchanúint ("central dialect"), but even learners I know don't use it. Ciarán (if you remember him), like most L2 speakers, had teachers from a variety of dialectal backgrounds, so what he speaks is an idiosyncratic mix--Munster pronunciation for some words, Connacht for others, plus a few Ulsterisms (which in its own way mirrors the formation of the CO).

The old TY Irish that księżyc is using teaches straight-up Munster (West Muskerry, to be exact, despite the fact that the highest concentration of Munster speakers is in Kerry). I'm not sure what the new one uses. All my audiovisual materials teach dialect. Pimsleur is Kerry (Munster) and Speaking Irish has speakers from all around the Isle plus North America.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-14, 19:25

dEhiN wrote:due to the proliferation of audio media due to technology, most major and even some minor languages have essentially a standardised or normative pronunciation that accompanies the written standard.

So where can I learn the normative pronunciation of English?
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby kevin » 2017-02-14, 19:29

linguoboy wrote:There was an attempt to develop an artificial norm in the form of the Lárchanúint ("central dialect"), but even learners I know don't use it.

Actually, I once tried to find out what sounds the Lárchanúint even uses and could barely find anything about it on the internet except that it allegedly exists (and that it's inferior to dialects of course - no discussion about anything related to Irish without this). Is it really that obscure or did I just do something wrong with my search?

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-14, 20:18

kevin wrote:
linguoboy wrote:There was an attempt to develop an artificial norm in the form of the Lárchanúint ("central dialect"), but even learners I know don't use it.

Actually, I once tried to find out what sounds the Lárchanúint even uses and could barely find anything about it on the internet except that it allegedly exists (and that it's inferior to dialects of course - no discussion about anything related to Irish without this). Is it really that obscure or did I just do something wrong with my search?

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I could've sworn that this Wikipedia page used to state that the pronunciations given were taken from the Lárchanúint. Certainly, they look rather "neutral" (i.e. close to but not identical to Connacht, with no notable dialect-specific features).

The authoritative source is Lárchanúint don Ghaeilge (Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, 1986). Although other normative works (notably the Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí and the de Bhaldraithe and Ó Dónaill dictionaries) have been made available for free online, that doesn't seem to be the case with this one. I think most people's source for the Lárchanúint is actually the Foclóir Poca, the only commonly-used Irish dictionary to include pronunciation information.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby kevin » 2017-02-14, 21:12

linguoboy wrote:Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I could've sworn that this Wikipedia page used to state that the pronunciations given were taken from the Lárchanúint. Certainly, they look rather "neutral" (i.e. close to but not identical to Connacht, with no notable dialect-specific features).

The current version of the article says "The pronunciations in this article reflect Connacht Irish pronunciation; other accents may differ."

The authoritative source is Lárchanúint don Ghaeilge (Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, 1986). Although other normative works (notably the Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí and the de Bhaldraithe and Ó Dónaill dictionaries) have been made available for free online, that doesn't seem to be the case with this one. I think most people's source for the Lárchanúint is actually the Foclóir Poca, the only commonly-used Irish dictionary to include pronunciation information.

Ok, thanks. Then I guess no Lárchanúint for me. I mean I wasn't planning to actually use it (well, me actually speaking Irish is unlikely enough...), it was pure curiosity anyway.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-14, 21:16

kevin wrote:Ok, thanks. Then I guess no Lárchanúint for me. I mean I wasn't planning to actually use it (well, me actually speaking Irish is unlikely enough...), it was pure curiosity anyway.

I found the Fócloir Póca on Amazon.de for less than €4: https://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/253-4514372-6473838?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=focloir+poca. Might be worth satisfying your curiosity for that little.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-02-14, 21:28

linguoboy wrote:What's interesting to me is how pronunciation often ends up following the standard. As kevin says, the German norm is the result of L2 speakers from the North treating a purely written variety as a living language and concocting their own pronunciation for it. This is an extreme example, but something like this happens with all normative varieties. Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

And that makes sense to me.

Modern Irish is actually less subject to this than most European vernaculars since illiteracy was so widespread until recently. I suspect, though, that a lot of dialectal variant pronunciations listed in Ó Cuív's work (the basis for the pronunciations given in TY Irish) are under threat if not already replaced by closer approximations to the CO forms. I'd be interested to find out, for instance, whether people in Muskerry today still say /pəilˊəkaːn/ like their predecessors or if they've adopted a Munsterised version of féileacán instead.

Now that is an interesting thought. And, based on what we've discussed so far, it wouldn't shock me if this process was at least starting with Irish.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-15, 2:11

linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

I didn't even know the l was supposed to be dropped until now.
Ciarán (if you remember him)

I think Ciarán may have stopped being active here before dEhiN joined. :hmm:

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby eskandar » 2017-02-15, 2:58

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

I didn't even know the l was supposed to be dropped until now.

I've never heard 'solder' pronounced with an L! Vijay, don't tell me you pronounce the L in 'salmon', too - I've heard this before from desis :lol:
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-02-15, 3:37

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

I didn't even know the l was supposed to be dropped until now.

Solder was one of those words that it took me a long time to connect to the spoken form. Like I knew that solder was something used in metalworking and I knew that my father had a "soddering arn", but I didn't realise what the relationship was.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-15, 3:54

eskandar wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

I didn't even know the l was supposed to be dropped until now.

I've never heard 'solder' pronounced with an L! Vijay, don't tell me you pronounce the L in 'salmon', too - I've heard this before from desis :lol:

I don't now, but I used to! My parents still do. :P
linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

I didn't even know the l was supposed to be dropped until now.

Solder was one of those words that it took me a long time to connect to the spoken form. Like I knew that solder was something used in metalworking and I knew that my father had a "soddering arn", but I didn't realise what the relationship was.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me. It's probably a word that my dad would pronounce with the l but Americans (generally :silly:) wouldn't.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-02-15, 4:31

linguoboy wrote:
dEhiN wrote:due to the proliferation of audio media due to technology, most major and even some minor languages have essentially a standardised or normative pronunciation that accompanies the written standard.

So where can I learn the normative pronunciation of English?

If there is no normative pronunciation, then what phonemes are taught to L2 speakers when they learn either GA or RP? Even in English linguistics, as far as I understand it, there are specific phonemes that are included in the analysis of RP and GA.

Also, at least in Canada, a national news service like CBC news seems to use a fairly neutral Canadian accent. Though perhaps they have different newscasters for each region? But I can definitely tell it's neutral because when I watch instead Canadian shows on CBC, if it's one that's based out west I will hear the slight Prairie accent. Or if it's based on Newfoundland, I will hear a newfie accent.

linguoboy wrote:Just yesterday, we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.

Yeah I came to this realization a while back. I learned it without the l but learned to spell it with the l, and I figured that letter must be silent. (This was back before I got into linguistics or anything). But I quickly learned that some use the l; in fact I think one of my really close friends says /'soʊldə/, and he also uses dinner for lunch and supper for dinner.

vijayjohn wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ciarán (if you remember him)

I think Ciarán may have stopped being active here before dEhiN joined. :hmm:

No I joined when he was still active. But then I went through 2 different break periods, so I think he must've stopped being active during the last one. I wondered what happened to him.
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-15, 4:45

dEhiN wrote:If there is no normative pronunciation, then what phonemes are taught to L2 speakers when they learn either GA or RP?

They don't necessarily learn either of those. When your parents learned English, did they learn GA or RP? I know for a fact that my parents learned neither.

From what I can tell, people in English classes learn whatever pronunciation their instructors use. But even if they did all learn either GA or RP, that already shows that there's no single normative pronunciation, doesn't it?

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-02-15, 5:05

vijayjohn wrote:But even if they did all learn either GA or RP, that already shows that there's no single normative pronunciation, doesn't it?

Yeah I suppose that's true. Plus I'm not entirely sure I was using normative correctly. Perhaps I was thinking more of a standard pronunciation. (Which thinking of it now, is probably not a reality as well. There could be a more neutral pronunciation/dialect, but probably not a standard one.)
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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby Saim » 2017-02-15, 5:10

IpseDixit wrote:(i.e: Ladin, Romansh, Sardinian, Basque) it seems that their "conlang standard" never really took hold


I don't think you can say that about Standard Basque (euskara batua). There is lots of music in the language, Basque-language television mainly uses it and it's used a lot in administration and as the medium of education in schools. Most of the anti-batua sentiment I've heard has been from Spanish nationalists who don't have any grasp on Basque, many of whom aren't even Basque (or "Basque or Navarrese", as they'd say) at all. Native speakers still maintain their dialects, but I wouldn't say that's a failure of the standard, in fact for me the opposite would be a failure.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-02-15, 5:11

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But even if they did all learn either GA or RP, that already shows that there's no single normative pronunciation, doesn't it?

Yeah I suppose that's true. Plus I'm not entirely sure I was using normative correctly. Perhaps I was thinking more of a standard pronunciation. (Which thinking of it now, is probably not a reality as well. There could be a more neutral pronunciation/dialect, but probably not a standard one.)

RP is a standard that is taught not only to L2 speakers but even to native speakers of English in England, at the expense of all regional accents within the United Kingdom. GA is really a continuum of accents, and whether it's a standard or even a useful term is debatable.

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Re: 2016-2017 blog - księżyc

Postby Saim » 2017-02-15, 5:16

linguoboy wrote:I believe it was rejected,


It was indeed. There are newsreaders that use the Standard with Western pronunciation.

In the Balearics they de facto have a local version of the Standard (even newsreaders speak with clear insular traits; to me it sounds like a compromise between Central and Insular Catalan). In Valencia, on the other hand, the standard is defined by the Normes de Castelló and the Acadèmia de la Llengua.

but de facto the pronunciation included in paedagogical works aimed at L2 speakers takes as its basis an Eastern Catalan norm essentially identical to educated Barcelonese.


This is true. I wonder if Valencia has produced any textbooks with Western pronunciation. I'd imagine they would do, at least.

I feel like Catalan textbooks also use some words like xicot and oncle that are mostly absent from Barcelonese speech as well, though that may just be out of trying to avoid Spanish influence (the more common nòvio and tiet are both Hispanicisms, albeit relatively old). What's funny is I remember one newspaper localised a Balearic article for their Catalonian edition, replacing the word oncle with tiet, which was widely criticised.

linguoboy wrote:we were discussing the pronunciation of solder on a friend's wall and I discovered that there are varieties in English in which the l is pronounced--despite the fact that it was only reinserted during the Latinising craze of the Enlightenment.


Wow, I was only ever aware of the pronunciation with the l. I can't say I've ever heard an Australian say anything other than /soʊldə/~/səʉldɐ/.


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