TAC 2014 - Limagne فارسی - Kurdî - Azərbaycan dili

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Limagne
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Re: TAC 2012 - Limagne - FA/AZ

Postby Limagne » 2012-12-08, 21:45

Thanks Meera :)

Well I just wanted to add a brief remark concerning the Iranian media I'm using for my studies. I've actually just realized that were was an apparently new daily newspaper called Bahâr. Funnily enough, I found out about it while watching a press review on Manoto TV yesterday! It seems to be liberal-leaning as far as I can tell.

The design of their site reminds me of the website of Shargh, so I'm starting to wonder if there's not some sort of link between those two publications.

Here it is:

http://www.baharnewspaper.com/

Anyway, it's time for a long-awaited Azerbaijani review :D

[flag=]az[/flag]

Good news here. I've mostly been practicing reading and I have to say I feel I've been making slow but steady progress. Skimming through an article written in Azerbaijani isn't as mind-blowingly complicated as it was a few months ago. I still have much work to do before being able to tackle technical texts or literature, though.

Another worth-noting progress is that I can now build my own sentences without having to think over which grammar structures to use for ten minutes in my head. I've done some writing. My attempts have been systematically riddled with mistakes and plagued by a desperately clumsy syntax but I won't be too hard on myself in this regard. It's frankly quite a miracle for me to feel comfortable enough with Azerbaijani to write my own sentences :lol:

Not much speaking practice but it's not a priority for me right now. Which has me thinking, my speaking ability is probably miserably low :mrgreen: I'll need to set up a few conversation practices with my Tabrizi friends.

Well, time needs time. There's no way I'm going to speak Azerbaijani like a bülbül without constant and patient hardwork. Reaching a low intermediate level in the passive skills will be my goal for next year. I guess it's a reasonable expectation considering I'll have other important objectives.

To tell the truth, I'm thinking of going through Kurtulus Oztopcu's introductory book one more time. There's also that textbook written in German which was introduced by a fellow learner in the Azeri subforum a few weeks ago. Reviewing the basics won't be superfluous before venturing into those mine fields they call the intermediate plateau.

Oh, and I have an announcement to make...

[flag=]ku[/flag] Kurdish will be my main focus in 2013 :partyhat:

I wish much success to all my companions in misfortune doing the TAC.

And here's an enchanting santur performance I wanted to share here. Not directly language related, but it's undoubtedly one of the most beautiful things the cultures I'm studying everyday have produced :yep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO6S2W7o0oM
Last edited by Limagne on 2014-01-04, 20:44, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: TAC 2012 - Limagne - FA/AZ

Postby Meera » 2012-12-15, 2:49

Limagne wrote:Thanks Meera :)

Well I just wanted to add a brief remark concerning the Iranian media I'm using for my studies. I've actually just realized that were was an apparently new daily newspaper called Bahâr. Funnily enough, I found out about it while watching a press review on Manoto TV yesterday! It seems to be liberal-leaning as far as I can tell.

The design of their site reminds me of the website of Shargh, so I'm starting to wonder if there's not a relation between those two publications.

Here it is:

http://www.baharnewspaper.com/





This is a great newspaper thanks for sharing, I love the layout! Good luck with Kurdish its a very interesting and beautiful language.
अहिंसा/เจ
Learning: (hi) (ja) (ko) (fr)

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-07, 16:57

Thanks!

So...

First of all, I have to point out I have no specific goals in mind for the year to come. Having clear expectations of what you can realistically achieve within one year is one thing. Drawing a detailed battle plan and imposing yourself unnecessary contraints is another.

After all, history teaches us that planification is bound to fail :mrgreen:

I want my studies to be flexible, above all.

For Kurdish, I won't eschew formal study. Although it turned out I cannot attend the Kurmanji classes given at the Kurdish cultural centre in Paris, I still managed to find a native speaker willing to tutor me on a regular basis in return for French lessons.
I mostly intend to avoid the chaotic period I had gone through when I first started studying Persian four years ago. My limited learning experience tells me that when starting out feeback is vital.

Now, you could rightly ask me why Kurdish ? Well, mainly because it is spoken natively in regions I'm interested in knowing better, ie. Eastern Anatolia and Khorasan. I've always been more interested in the cultures than in the languages themselves. Not to dismiss altogether the purely linguistic incentive in deciphering a second Iranic language, but it's clearly not a decisive factor here.

Azerbaijani remains an important focus. It's going to be a sort of « background » language, dare I say. Not my iron hot priority but still... The last few months of study have led to very positive results given the limited time and care I was able to dedicate to it.

And then Persian. Just the usual stuff. Lots of reading, chatting and listening. Dari and Tajiki won't be neglected.

Talking about which, I have read a few articles in Tajiki on the BBC Persian news site. It's always very interesting to note the stylistic differences between the two variants. There's also a rich array of synonyms or alternative words which aren't commonly found in Iranian Persian.

I've actually created an Anki deck to store up all those new lexical items. I find it absolutely riveting that those words are evidence to the cultural different influences to which the Persian language was exposed to in central Asia. In Iran, the colloquial language is typically full of loan-words from Azerbaijani (eg. قاپیدن /qâpidan/ : to snatch, باجی /bâji/ : sister etc.) or smaller Iranic languages like Lori (eg. کاکو /kâko/ in Shirazi Persian for example).

In Tajikistan on the other hand, borrowings have been made from Uzbek or middle Iranian languages which are now dead, such as Sogdian. It's not surprising since before the advent of the Russian revolution Uzbeks and Tajiks didn't use to identify themselves as such and were commonly refered to as Sarts. Historians tend to believe that the Sart identity wasn't based on linguistic criterias but on a sedentary way of life, in contrast with neighbouring nomadic people like the historical Uzbeks and the Uyghurs.

Here's a list of words that picked my attention:

Аланга /alanga/ – flame (the same word exists in Uzbek and it's possibly derivated from a Turkic root, but I don't know its exact etymology), شعله /sho'le/ in Iran. A few compounds are based on this noun, like Алангагирӣ /alangagiri/ : burst.
Анъана /an'ana/ - tradition ; the word عنعنه is quite rare in Iran.
Дабдаба /dabdaba/ - splendour (also used in Uzbek) ; never seen it used in Iranian prose. Пурдабдаба /purdabdaba/ - splendid.
Дарак  /darak/ - news, from Uzbek (eg. darakchi : messenger)
Гулхан /gulkhan/ - bonfire ; gulxan in Uzbek. There's no entry found for گلخان in Dehkhoda's dictionary so I suppose its use is limited to central Asia.
Кайҳост /kayhost/ - it's been a long time since... here the question word /kay/ (when) is in the plural and followed by the copula. The use of the conjunction ки /ki/ (that) does not seem to be required.
Кӯч бастан /köch bastan/ : to move, to migrate (the only difference with Iranian Persian is the use of the auxiliary /bastan/ instead of /kardan/).
Кӯрпа /körpa/ - blanket (پتو /patu/ in Iran).
Қулай /qulay/ - easy ; an evident Turkic loan-word. Kolay is probably one of the first words students of Turkish learn.
Қуллуқ /qulluq/ - thanks, another borrowing from Uzbek.
Хоб кардан /khob kardan/ - to sleep ; it's a compound verb formed with the noun /khob/ (sleep) and the auxiliary /kardan/ (to do). In standard Iranian Persian the verb خوابیدن /khâbidan/ replaces it.
Хуллас /khullas/ – then, at least
Сурфидан /surfidan/ - to cough ; the exact opposite of хоб кардан. Here the original verb has been preserved in Tajiki while Iranian Persian now uses the compound verb سرفه کردن /sorfeh kardan/.
Тарма /tarma/ – avalanche, بهمن /bahman/ in Iran.
Тиреза /tireza/ – window (from classical Persian درازه /darâza/ : long), deraza is the Uzbek equivalent. The word used in Iran is پنجره /panjere/, which can also be used in Tajiki if I'm not mistaken.
Толибилм /tolibilm/ - student

Sorry for the messy alphabetic order.

Some compounds follow typically Persian word formation rules but are specific to Tajiki.

Бекӯву кас /be kövu kas/ - homeless, desperate (/köv/ : house, /kas/ : someone)
Чорабинӣ /chorabini/ - a way, a solution (راه حل /râhe hall/ is prefered in Iran).
Нодор /nodor/ - poor (نادار : not having)

Then, there are obviously a lot of other words which entered Tajik from Russian from the 1920s on.

Бутал /butal/ - bottle

Enough words. Let's listen to Sadigh Ta'rif singing ghazal number 40 from the Divan of Hafez.

The poem is called
المنه لله که در میکده باز است /almennate ella ke dare meykade bâz ast/ : Thank God, the door of the tavern is open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Iv85-_F80

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-07, 17:37

Here's the translation of an article written in Tajiki. Not sure if there are other people interested in Central Asia here, but I thought posting it would bring more interesting content to this thread.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tajik/news/2013/01 ... cold.shtml

Хатлон: Ҷидоли Деҳқонбобо ва ҳамсару духтараш бо сармо

Khatlon : the struggle of Dehqonbobo's family against the cold

Рӯзе, ки бори аввал дар Қурғонтеппа барф борид, гузорам аз боғи марказии ин шаҳр мегузашт ва ба гӯшам садои гиряи кӯдаке расид.

One day, I was strolling in the town's central park. It was the first time [of the year] it was snowing in Qurghonteppa. Suddenly, I heard the sound of a child crying.

Ба ҷойе ки садо аз он ҷо мерасид, таваҷҷуҳ кардам. Дар паҳлӯи боғи марказӣ сохтмоне чаҳортабақаӣ дар ҳоли бунёд шудан аст, ки садо аз онҷо меомад.

I looked for the place from where the sound was coming. Next to the park laid a four-floor building in construction.

Дар табақаи чаҳорум, аз ҷойе ки дар он бояд панҷара бошад, дуди гулхан ба ҳаво мепечид.

At the fourth floor, where you would expect to see windows, smoke was twisting from a bonfire.

Кунҷковӣ кардаму ошкор шуд, ки дар ин ҷо, дар табақаи чаҳоруми сохтмони нотамом аҳли хонаводае ба ҷойи дару тиреза чодар кашида, сенафарӣ зиндагӣ мекунанд.

I felt curious. It became clear that the three members of a family were living there, at the fourth floor of that half-finished building, with canvas drawn up instead of windows.

Ин хонаводаи Деҳқонбобо Тошпулодов ва Малика Қурбонова аст, ки духтари 11-солае бо номи Гулчеҳра доранд. Вақте ба табақаи чаҳорум баромадам, даъват карданд, ки дар алангаи гулханашон дастонамро гарм кунам.

It's the family of Dehqonbobo and Makika Qurbonova. They have a 11 year-old daughter called Gulchehra. When I got to the fourth floor, they invited me to warm my hands next to their bonfire.

Деҳқонбобои 70-сола гуфт вай сокини ноҳияи Бохтар аст, ки пас аз издивоҷи дувумаш бо зане ҷавонтар писаронаш ӯро аз хона бо ҳамсару духтараш рондаанд ва онҳо маҷбур шудаанд ба Қурғонтеппа кӯч банданд.

Dehqonbobo, aged 70, said that he was from the district of Bokhtar. After his second wedding with a younger wife, his sons threw him out with his spouse and his daughter. They were forced to move to Qurghonteppa.

Вай гуфт: "Шояд ҷойи писаронамро дар хона танг кардам, онҳо маро аз хона ронданд. Ҷойи зист надоштем, ба Қурғонтеппа омадам, ки шояд инҷо коре пайдо кунам ва зиндагӣ кунам."

He added : "Maybe I was taking too much room in my sons' house, maybe that's why they threw me out. We hadn't enough room to live. I came to Qurghonteppa so that maybe I could find a work and earn my livelihood".

Деҳқонбобо кор пайдо карда, вале манзил на. Ӯ дар бозори шаҳри Қурғонтеппа гиёҳҳои доруӣ мефурӯшад. Дар як рӯз то даҳ сомонӣ даромад дорад, ки бо ин маблағ иҷора нишастан албатта ғайримумкин аст.

Dehqonbobo has found work, but no house. He sells medicinal plants at the market of Qurghonteppa. In a day he can earn up to ten Somoni. With that sum of course, renting a house isn't possible.

Вай мегӯяд: "Бо ҳамсару духтарам дар ҳамин сохтмони нимсохта ҷо ёфтем ва зиндагӣ мекунем. Ба ҳукумати ноҳияи Бохтар барои гирифтани замин барои сохтмони хона ариза навиштам, аммо надоданд."


"My family and me we found this half-finished building and now we live here. I wrote a complaint to the government of the district of Bokhtar asking for a site to build a house, but they didn't give me one", he says.


Ӯ мегӯяд бо сармое, ки фаро расида, бовар надорад, ки бо хонаводааш аз зимистони сард ҷони солим бадар бибарад: "Ростӣ, вақте шаб хоб мекунем, зиёд бовар надорем, ки то субҳ зинда мемонем, гоҳе фикр мекунам, ки шояд дигар ҳеҷ гоҳ бедор намешавам."

He says that with the arriving of the cold, he does not believe he and his family will survive winter. "Actually, when we sleep at night, we don't have much hope to wake up alive in the morning. Sometimes I think we will never wake up again".

Аммо Малика, ҳамсари оқои Деҳқонбобо, мегӯяд, ки кайҳост шабҳо хоб надорад.

However Malika, Dehqonbobo's wife, says she hasn't been able to find sleep for a long time.

Ӯ ки машғули омода кардани хӯрок барои шавҳар ва духтараш буд ва хеле ҷиддӣ ба ман гуфт: "Ман шабҳо мувозиби шавҳару духтарам ҳастам, то саҳар хоб намекунам. Ба онҳо нигоҳ мекунам, ки мабодо аз сардӣ иттифоқе бо онҳо науфтад."

She was busy preparing dinner for her husband and her daughter and told me very seriously : "At night I watch my husband and my daughter. I don't sleep until dawn. I look at them lest something happen to them because of the cold".

Малика мегӯяд ончи аз дасти ӯ меояд, гоҳе курпа ба рӯяшон кашидан асту гоҳе ба оташ буталҳои плостикӣ андохтан. Ӯ навмед аст, ки ҳукумат ба ӯ ва ё афроде мисли ӯ кумак намекунад.

Malika says that she can't do more than drawing a blanket on them or throwing plastic bottles in the fire. She is despaired because the government doesn't help her and people living under the same conditions.


Вай мегӯяд: "Духтарам ва шавҳарам сахт сармо хӯрдаанд, ҳамеша месурфанд. Аммо одам ба умед аст ва ман дуъо мекунам, ки худо розӣ бошаду мо то баҳор зинда бимонем."

"My daughter and my husband have got very ill, they are always coughing. Well, hope keeps man alive. I pray for them so that God keep us alive until spring", she explains.

Аммо ба бовари Деҳқонбобо, ҳукумати шаҳру вилоят бояд ба фикри афроди бекӯву кас ва дармондае монанди ӯ бошанд.


According to Dehqonbobo though, the municipal and provincial governments have to take care of the poor and the helpless.


Гулчеҳраи 11-сола, ки ҳоло мебоист дар клоси панҷум таҳсил кунад, ба далели бепулӣ аз таҳсил дар мактаб канор мондааст.


11 year-old Gulchehra, who should be a 5th grader by now, can't go to school because of her parents' poverty.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-10, 11:16

Okay, now before we close the digression with Tajiki I wanted to post the media I like to use.

Tajik news portals and news agencies

http://news.tj/tj
http://www.khovar.tj/
http://www.pressa.tj/tj/
http://tojnews.org/
http://www.faraj.tj/
http://www.gazeta.tj/
http://kemyaesaadat.org/

Tajik newspapers

http://www.jumhuriyat.tj/
http://ruzgor.tj/
http://www.millat.tj/
http://www.gazetasugd.tj/

Foreign based news portals

http://www.ozodi.org/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tajik/
http://tajik.irib.ir/

Blogs

http://tajmusic.wordpress.com/
http://jovidmuqim.wordpress.com/
http://voristj.wordpress.com/
http://mazdo.wordpress.com/
http://ilhom.wordpress.com/
http://aioubzod.wordpress.com/
http://samarqand.malakut.org/
http://mastchoh.wordpress.com/
http://abdulfattoh.blogspot.fr/
http://turanica.wordpress.com/
http://www.kayoumars.blogspot.fr/
http://paikon.wordpress.com/
http://gerbisherdor.blogspot.fr/
http://tojikona.wordpress.com/
http://sadokat.wordpress.com/
http://neweurasia.net/tajikistan/
http://todaytj.wordpress.com/

Some of those have unfortunately been designed in a disastruous manner to say the least, which makes them hardly navigable.

Today's musical recreation is a very successful Tajik song. It was released in the end of 2012. I've discovered it in the last episode of Ояндасоз /oyandasoz/, a Radio Ozodi podcast which I enjoy :)

Нозия Кароматулло - бе ту делгирам [Nozia Karomatullo - be tu delgiram]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt-iB85fFuc

[flag=]az[/flag]

I'm currently focusing on reading practice. The Azərbaycan newspaper, which is said to be supportive of the current regime, is my major source. Not that I'm myself a big fan of the government, but their articles are much more complex than the articles published on the websistes of the BBC and Radio azadlıq as far as grammar is concerned. It's a bigger challenge.

I have to confess I feel more and more addicted to those paragraph-long Azerbaijani sentences. I need my fix every day :mrgreen:

Here's the article I've been working on for the last two days:

Gözəllik pərisi

The text is about the life of Leyla Bədirbeyli, an Azerbaijani actress which was renowned for her beauty and charisma. Her talent was recognized in the whole USSR and she soon became a legend in her homeland. She has notably played in Arshin Mal Alan, a musical released in 1945.

Üzünün zərif cizgilərində daim bir təbəssüm duyulan, qaragözlü, şirinsözlü, Dövlət mükafatı laureatı, Azərbaycanın xalq artisti Leyla Bədirbəyli elə gözəl və cazibədar idi ki, heç onun nə vaxtsa qocala biləcəyini təsəvvürümüzə gətirə bilməzdik. Libasını geyindiyi bütün surətlərə elə bir şirinlik bağışlamışdı ki, onu seyr etməkdən doymaq olmurdu. Bu böyük sənətkarın pərəstişkarı çox idi. Mən də rollarından tutmuş müxtəlif televiziya verilişlərindəki çıxışlarına qədər hamısını maraqla izləyərdim. Onun necə qüdrətli sənətkar olduğunu həm duyur, həm də heyrətə gələrdim. Çünki Leyla xanım yaratdığı obrazlara elə can və ruh verərdi ki, tamaşaçı bütün varlığı ilə ona diqqət kəsilərdi. Leyla Bədirbəyli adicə aktrisa deyildi. O, teatr sənətinə, milli kinoya işıq və əlvanlıq, məlahət gətirən bir gözəllik pərisi idi. Leyla xanım 1999-cu ilin sonunda dünyasını dəyişəndə mənə elə gəldi ki, Yer üzünü bürümüş bir bəyazlıq qapqara kədərə çevrildi. İnana bilmədik ki, bir daha Leyla Bədirbəylinin səsi gəlməyəcək.


Here's a documentary about Leyla's career as an actress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuIxyC77j2o
Last edited by Limagne on 2014-01-04, 22:09, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-13, 13:15

[flag=]ku[/flag]

I did the first two lessons of Learn Kurdish yesterday. Rizgar's course is quite pleasant to use. The only disappointment is that there are no real dialogues. The lessons only contain written sentences and grammar explanations. There are a lot of exercices though, as well as copious examples.

Some new words I like :partyhat:

bijîşk - doctor
carinan - sometimes
gog - ball
pitik - baby
pênûs - pen
mizgeft - mosquee
jîyan - life
lênûsk - notebook
pace - window
mazûvan - host
zilam - man
alav - tool

The first grammar point introduced by the book was how to make indefinite nouns. Just like in Persian you have to add a suffix, -(y)ek. So for example with a word like jin (woman), you get jinek (a woman).

The suffix -yek is the same as the word for "one" (yek), but they are used in two different cases:

jinek : a woman
yek jin : one woman

The only real difficulty is that in the spoken language -eyek tends to be shortened to -ek. So mamostek (a teacher) can be used instead of mamosteyek.

Here are a few exemples to illustrate the rules:
- sêv (apple) -> sêvek (an apple)
- kevçî (spoon) -> kevçîyek (a spoon)
- xwendekar (student) -> xwendekarek (a student)

Things are actually a little bit trickier because the indefinite article has a plural form : -in. So mamosteyin correspunds to "teachers".

The first exercice was fill-in-the-blanks type and pretty straightforward.

Hîndarî 1

* malek (a house)
* gundîyek (a villager)
* xanîyek (a house)
* sakoyek (a coat)
* polîsek (a policeman)
* mizgeftek (a mosquee)
* kevçîyek (a spoon)
* pirtûkek (a book)
* mêvanek (a guest)
* agirek (a fire)
* jinek (a woman)
* nameyek (a letter)
* zaroyek (a child)
* cotkarek (a farmer)
* pitikek (a baby)
* jiyanek (a life)
* nexweşek (an ill person)
* lawek (a boy)
* keçek (a girl)
* kurek (a son)
* sêvek (an apple)

Lesson 2 was about the demonstrative and the negative copula.

Ev pirtûk e (this is a book)
Ew paceyek e (that is a window)
Ev gundî ne (these are villagers)
Ew gundî ye (that is a villager)

Adding ma /gelo/qey is necessary to form yes/no questions.

Ma ev kurdî ye ? (is this a Kurd?)

The other question words are çi (what), kî (who) and çawa (how).

Ev çi ye ? (what is this ?)

To make the verb 'to be' negative, you just have to add ne before it.

Ew ne zaro ne (those are not children).
Ev ne gog in (these are not balls).
Ev ne gundî ye (this is not a villager)
Ev ne mizgeft e (this is not a mosquee).

Hîndarî 2

Ev pirtûkek e.
Ew xwendekarek e.
Ev sakoyek e.
Ev kevçî ne.
Ew agir in.
Ew dêr e.
Ev kur in.
Ew keç e.
Ew axa ne.
Ev karker in.
Ew gundî ne.
Ew jin e.
Ev zaro ye.

Ma ev ne zilamek e?
Ma ew ne pitik in?
Ew ne law e.
Ev ne bav e.
Ev ne xanî ye.
Ma ev ne xwendekar e?
Ev ne karker in.
Ev na axa ye.

I've been practicing the pronunciation quite intensively too. It's much harder than say, Persian. First there are much more vowels. The "u" is particularly confusing. In theory, it should be pronounced /ʊ/ but the actual sound seems to be somewhat different :hmm: I also tend to pronounce the "i" as a Turkish "ı", not sure if this is correct. I guess I need more exposure.

Then, there's the two sets of aspirated and unaspirated vowels (ç, k, p, r, t). The thing is the difference in pronunciation isn't noted in the writing system and thus has to be memorized.

Other than that, I watched the first two videos of the Dersa Kurdî series on youtube. The lessons are very well made and it's really nice to get listening practice designed with beginners in mind :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXr8vX40VZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV7PpWlsg1c

EDIT : I should add English to my TAC... I make way too many spelling mistakes :mrgreen:
Last edited by Limagne on 2014-01-04, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby uvulartrill » 2013-01-13, 14:15

Remember that /ʊ/ can represent either a rounded or an unrounded vowel, as it represents a near-close near-back vowel without specified rounding (akin to /ə/ and /ɐ/). And Kurdish has no /ʊ/ according to Wikipedia, but rather /ʉː uː u ɪ̈ o̞/ in that region. So the only near-close vowel is a central unrounded one (/ɪ̈/), similar to Polish /ɨ/ (I haven't seen a Kurdish vowel trapezium to compare their exact quality). So it appears to be an issue of inaccurate (but probably not incorrect) transcription that materials you're learning from are using. I wrote probably not incorrect because in phonemic transcriptions you can use any symbols you wish, as long as you're 100% consistent. I don't know whether they're using slashes or brackets. If the latter, they're incorrect.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Meera » 2013-01-13, 20:31

I love reading about your Kurdish updates. Very interesting language indeed.

J'aime bien à lire tes notes pour Kurdish. C'est une langue interessante! :)
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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-15, 17:13

Merci Meera :) ouais, vive le kurde!

uvulartrill wrote:Remember that /ʊ/ can represent either a rounded or an unrounded vowel, as it represents a near-close near-back vowel without specified rounding (akin to /ə/ and /ɐ/). And Kurdish has no /ʊ/ according to Wikipedia, but rather /ʉː uː u ɪ̈ o̞/ in that region. So the only near-close vowel is a central unrounded one (/ɪ̈/), similar to Polish /ɨ/ (I haven't seen a Kurdish vowel trapezium to compare their exact quality). So it appears to be an issue of inaccurate (but probably not incorrect) transcription that materials you're learning from are using. I wrote probably not incorrect because in phonemic transcriptions you can use any symbols you wish, as long as you're 100% consistent. I don't know whether they're using slashes or brackets. If the latter, they're incorrect.


I've seen the letter /ʊ/ used in a reference grammar I have. I must say I know close to nothing about phonetics though.

In another work (which is one of the most authorative grammar of the language) they say that 'u' is actually a diphtong consisting in 'w' + /ɪ̈/.

It's all very confusing. Thanks a lot for your help anyway, it was greatly appreciated :wink:

uvulartrill

Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby uvulartrill » 2013-01-15, 20:40

Limagne wrote:In another work (which is one of the most authoraritive grammar of the language) they say that 'u' is actually a diphthong consisting of (to consist of - to be composed of; to consist in - to have a basis in) 'w' + /ɪ̈/.

I hope you don't mind corrections, cause you haven't made it clear whether you want them. Yes, what your grammar book says may as well be true, or both [wɪ̈] and [ɪ̈] realizations may be correct. Just like contemporary RP allows /iː/ to be pronounced as either [iː] or [ɪi] (except pre-laterally, that's to say before the dark l where no-one ever would pronounce a diphthong) with no change of meaning.

Limagne wrote:It's all very confusing. Thanks a lot for your help anyway, it was greatly appreciated :wink:

No problem.

hannah41 wrote:Hahaha - this is a great idea.
I will defo be joining in with this challenge, stay tuned to hear more from me and to track my progress...

Good luck, but you need to start your own thread :)

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Set » 2013-01-18, 11:37

Good luck with Kurdish (and the others of course).

It's great that you've found someone who's willing to tutor you with Kurdish. I would love to find a Kurdish language exchange partner, but I have no idea how to do it here...maybe just walk around with a cardboard sign saying I'm looking for a Kurdish partner... :P
Native:[flag=]en[/flag] Good:[flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ca[/flag] Focusing on:[flag=]fa[/flag][flag=]ku[/flag][flag=]ps[/flag] Interested in:[flag=]zza[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag]

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Meera » 2013-01-18, 19:10

Set wrote:Good luck with Kurdish (and the others of course).

It's great that you've found someone who's willing to tutor you with Kurdish. I would love to find a Kurdish language exchange partner, but I have no idea how to do it here...maybe just walk around with a cardboard sign saying I'm looking for a Kurdish partner... :P


Have you tried LiveMocha or SharedTalk?
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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-18, 21:47

Thank you Set!

How are your kurdish studies going ?


uvulartrill wrote:
Limagne wrote:In another work (which is one of the most authoraritive grammar of the language) they say that 'u' is actually a diphthong consisting of (to consist of - to be composed of; to consist in - to have a basis in) 'w' + /ɪ̈/.

I hope you don't mind corrections


I don't mind corrections ;)

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Set » 2013-01-19, 17:12

Limagne wrote:Thank you Set!

How are your kurdish studies going ?


Not bad, although I lost my study momentum over christmas and am finding it hard to any serious work for Kurdish or even Persian for that matter. Good to see that your studying hard though :D
Native:[flag=]en[/flag] Good:[flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ca[/flag] Focusing on:[flag=]fa[/flag][flag=]ku[/flag][flag=]ps[/flag] Interested in:[flag=]zza[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag]

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-01-21, 17:44

Don't let the long posts in this thread fool you :) I'm not studying very hard either.

Anyway, it's time for a small update.

[flag=]az[/flag]

I discovered a new Azerbaijani poet last week (thanks to the facebook page Klassik Azərbaycan Ədəbiyyatı which Kalemiye introduced in the Azerbaijani sub-forum).

Khurshidbanu Natavan was one of the first modern poetess of the region. She was from Shusha, in the Karabakh region.

The following ebook contains most of her works:

http://www.anl.az/el/n/nx_e.pdf

I'm nowhere near a native to judge her verses, but I find the language she uses to be truely fascinating. It's a blend of elaborate persianized vocabulary and a simple yet expressive style.

Here is a ghazal in which Natavan laments the loss of he person she loved:

Kəcrəvəşdir bu asiman, əfsus !
Bivəfadır cahan-ü can, əfsus !

Nə yaman dağ imiş oğul dağı,
Mənə üz vərdi imtahan, əfsus !

Göz evin qoydu nagəhan xali,
Oldu ol mərdümün nəhan, əfsus !

Mehrini kəsdi mən bəlakəşdən,
Oldu xak ilə mehriban, əfsus !

Ey gözüm nuri, hasil-i canim,
Çəkərəm sənsiz əlaman, əfsus !

Sərv qəddin düşübdü xak üzrə,
Sənə bid oldu sayəban, əfsus !

Səni ləbtəşnə yad edəndə olur,
Göz yaşım cuy tək rəvan, əfsus !

İzzət-ü çah-ü dövlət içrə səni,
Görmədim bircə kamran, əfsus !

Arizu-vu həvəs xəcil səndən,
Olmadım hiç şadman, əfsus !

Səni ağuşə çəkdi xak-i siyah,
Əşkdən bağrım oldu qan, əfsus !

İtirib bu şüküftə qönçəsini,
Qaldı sərkəştə Natəvan, əfsus !


I had to check the meaning of a few words in an etymological dictionary. Most of those are quite common in literary Persian but I wasn't sure if they had the same meanings.

dağ : dərd, qüssə (داغ)
ol : o
mərdüm : 1) insan, adam, bəşər 2) göz bəbəyi (مردم)
mehr : 1) günəş 2) sevgi (مهر)
bəlakəş : başıbəlalı (بلاکش)
hasil : səmərə (حاصل)
əlaman : kömək, yardım (الامان)
ləbtəşnə : susuzluqdan dodaqları quruyan (لب تشنه)
xəcil : xəcalətli (خجل)
əşk : göz yaşı (اشک)
sərkəştə : heyran (سرگشته)

I'm currently working on a French translation of the poem. It seems to be a good exercise grammar wise.
Last edited by Limagne on 2014-01-04, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-02-12, 14:48

Bump !

It's time for a new update.

[flag=]fa[/flag] [flag=]fa-AF[/flag]

I've been quite busy with Persian prosody lately. This is part of my effort to become better versed in the classical language. The intricacies of the script and the grammar make it absolutely necessary to have a minimal understanding of the meter.

Fortunately I've been able to find quite a lot of material on the topic. The following pages in particular were very useful:

http://ganjinah.mihanblog.com/post/7
http://pic85.blogfa.com/post-62.aspx
http://sabzandeeshebadrood.blogfa.com/post-81.aspx
http://arooz.mihanblog.com/
http://aryaadib.blogfa.com/post-270.aspx
http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/%D8%B1%D8%AC%D8%B2-3

I'm currently trying to write a tutorial on Persian prosody. I'll definitely post it in the Persian forum once I'm finished with it ! Stuff on classical Persian written in any European language is almost impossible to find.

I also learnt a bunch of new expressions.

http://www.farsishahri.com/index.php/dictionary/WOD

Apart from that, just the usual things. Lots of reading, lots of listening practice!

Here are a few articles I read last week:
احمدی‌نژاد با پخش‌ فیلم فاضل لاریجانی در مجلس جنجال آفرید
گرایش روشنفکران به گذشته، در اوج دوران تجدد
خطرات روند صلح؛ مقاله کرزی برای بی‌بی‌سی
نخستین رییس‌جمهوري ایران به مصر رفت
زبان رسمی یا زبان مادری؟
اصلاح‌طلبی با براندازی در تعارض است
يا پرونده القاعده در مالي بسته مي‌‌شود؟
در دل این تپه چیست؟
فارسیِ دری؛ زبان تمدن‌ها در تاریخ
سياست امام خميني(ره) جداکردن بدنه ارتش از حکومت شاه بود
نگاه به «سربازي» به مثابه يك دگرگوني در زندگي
دود آخر
انیمیشن ایران می‌تواند جهانی شود
پایان سفر پرحاشیه به مصر
آیا ۶۳ درصد ایرانیان مدافع ادامه برنامه هسته ای ایران هستند؟
حداقل حقوق 100‌درصد افزایش یابد
کاستی‌های ستاره افغان
کرزی: شاهزاده هری اشتباه کرد
نگراني از مرگ نوزادان در کشو

I really like the Ghanoon newspaper. Oh, and I was also terribly happy to see that Shargh is back.
Last edited by Limagne on 2014-01-04, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-02-13, 17:01

Just a quick post to introduce a very useful ressource for those interested in colloquial Dari.

The newspaper Hashte Sobh features daily plays on various topics. The greatest thing about it is that everything is written in spoken dari! So it's a fantastic source for daily vocabulary and idioms.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby eskandar » 2013-03-19, 16:53

Limagne wrote:Stuff on classical Persian written in any European language is almost impossible to find.
Have you come across Gilbert Lazard's "La langue des plus anciens monuments de la prose persane" (1963)? If so, what do you think of it? (By the way, it's very interesting--and inspiring--to read about your progress here. I wish I had as much free time to dedicate to language study).
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Meera » 2013-03-19, 18:10

Limagne wrote:Just a quick post to introduce a very useful ressource for those interested in colloquial Dari.

The newspaper Hashte Sobh features daily plays on various topics. The greatest thing about it is that everything is written in spoken dari! So it's a fantastic source for daily vocabulary and idioms.



This is amazing! Thank you.
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Re: TAC 2013 - Limagne - FA/AZ/KU

Postby Limagne » 2013-03-22, 16:12

eskandar wrote:
Limagne wrote:Stuff on classical Persian written in any European language is almost impossible to find.
Have you come across Gilbert Lazard's "La langue des plus anciens monuments de la prose persane" (1963)? If so, what do you think of it? (By the way, it's very interesting--and inspiring--to read about your progress here. I wish I had as much free time to dedicate to language study).


Thanks for the reference. Looks very promising - Lazard being one of the most prominent Iranian studies gurus.

It seems quite hard to find though, so I'll have to wait until June when I go to Paris in order to have a look at it since there is no university library where I live.


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