BTG²

This forum is for games of various sorts. Moderators may lock games that are too similar to already existing ones.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

User avatar
voron
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 3491
Joined: 2007-07-15, 3:29
Gender: male
Country: BY Belarus (Беларусь)

BTG²

Postby voron » 2012-05-14, 12:59

hashi wrote:On a side note, would many people be interested in starting another FuBAR BTG soon after? (I am going to blissfully ignore we're waiting for the others to finish).

I wonder if we can set up a bot to run these on a continuous basis. Participants would sign up continuously, and the bot would make up chains (ideally it would pick up the most "interesting" languages, avoid repetitions, and take favourite choices into account), and if someone procrastinates with the translation, the bot chooses the next available participant.

EDIT: hashi implemented it for us , here is the link http://2.btg.langwiki.info/
Last edited by voron on 2012-05-18, 14:59, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-14, 13:01

voron wrote:
hashi wrote:On a side note, would many people be interested in starting another FuBAR BTG soon after? (I am going to blissfully ignore we're waiting for the others to finish).

I wonder if we can set up a bot to run these on a continuous basis. Participants would sign up continuously, and the bot would make up chains (ideally it would pick up the most "interesting" languages, avoid repetitions, and take favourite choices into account), and if someone procrastinates with the translation, the bot chooses the next available participant.


Please don't suggest that, else you will give me reason to actually go and write a script that does that, lol. While I'm not totally against the idea, I think it could make the game totally impersonal :/

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby loqu » 2012-05-14, 16:03

It's a good theoretical idea, but I don't think it's practical. These games have just too many factors and making a bot handle all of them might not be the best solution. Would the bot...
- take care of all the nuances we write about the languages we offer to translate? Like "oh, I can translate Mapudungun well, but choosing me for Mon Khmer is not a good idea, I can do it if it's necessary". Just made the situation up, but you guys know what I mean.
- rearrange correctly the chains in case someone fails to translate? Like what happened with Jon and me these days.
- be flexible when someone says they can do their translation just the day after their deadline expired?

I think the flexibility a human organizer can offer isn't possible with a bot. But these are just my two cents.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
voron
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 3491
Joined: 2007-07-15, 3:29
Gender: male
Country: BY Belarus (Беларусь)

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby voron » 2012-05-14, 18:02

I couldn't agree more with you guys, especially about the personality factor.

I just find it fascinating from a programmer's perspective, especially the part with implementing the algorithms for arranging and re-arranging chains.

- take care of all the nuances we write about the languages we offer to translate? Like "oh, I can translate Mapudungun well, but choosing me for Mon Khmer is not a good idea, I can do it if it's necessary". Just made the situation up, but you guys know what I mean.

If it were an extension to the forum user interface, the language specifications could be made stricter, similar to how we specify them on the profiles.

- be flexible when someone says they can do their translation just the day after their deadline expired?

Hmm no. The bot would not tolerate procrastinations. :evil:

User avatar
kibo
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6942
Joined: 2003-12-16, 18:35
Gender: male
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby kibo » 2012-05-14, 21:35

The bot is a nice idea, but one thing where you'd still need a human would be the selection of the texts for the translations. Of course, you could prepare a set of texts in advance but it wouldn't be infinite and the person in charge of preparing the texts would have to either always be the first to translate or not participate at all. Or you could instruct the bot to withdraw a text sample from an external corpus, but that's even a less fortunate solution, since you can't control how recognizable the text is. (you'd have to instruct the bot to modify the personal names, dates, etc. which make things even more complex and so on and so on). Just my thoughts. :mrgreen:

But a bot for making/rearranging possible chains would be very nice.
Goals:
 (es) ➜ C1 (DELE)
 (de) ➜ B2 (Goethe-Zertifikat) / C1
 (sv) ➜ B1/B2

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-15, 0:20

I had a good think about it last night, my responses:

loqu wrote:It's a good theoretical idea, but I don't think it's practical. These games have just too many factors and making a bot handle all of them might not be the best solution. Would the bot...
- take care of all the nuances we write about the languages we offer to translate? Like "oh, I can translate Mapudungun well, but choosing me for Mon Khmer is not a good idea, I can do it if it's necessary". Just made the situation up, but you guys know what I mean.
This is easy to handle. I had thought that when you added languages you can do, it would ask for a rating of how comfortable you are translating to and from (I was thinking it would be very basic like "comfortable" and "not as comfortable, but would do it if necessary", to "will not translate to/from"). When a user starts a game, they could select whether they only want the "comfortable" language to be translated, or if they don't mind harder translations too. I would probably programme it so that the less comfortable ones would only come up if you're the only person who could possibly translate it.

loqu wrote:- rearrange correctly the chains in case someone fails to translate? Like what happened with Jon and me these days.
The model I was thinking, was something like: person A starts the game and picks the text. Person B logs in and pushes the "get text" button. The script will automatically search through the database for pending translations in languages they can translate from and will give it to them to translate. This way a) the person will only translate a text when they're ready, and b) there is no defined chain after the current player, so rearrangements aren't necessary. Simply drop that text from the player and put it back in the pool.

loqu wrote:- be flexible when someone says they can do their translation just the day after their deadline expired?
Easy enough to add an "extend" button. As voron said though, it will make the game stricter. As mentioned earlier too though, a person who wants a text to translate it should be able to do it then and there. If not, tough, they're kicked from the game and they can get another text if they want.

kibo wrote:The bot is a nice idea, but one thing where you'd still need a human would be the selection of the texts for the translations.
As mentioned, the texts would be human initiated.

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 11:08

Well, I know you guys probably think I'm crazy, but I was bored the last few days and went ahead and made a whole thingy for it. If you want to check it out, it's currently here:

http://2.btg.langwiki.info/

How it works roughly:
1. Sign up
2. Input the languages you want
3. If you want to start another chain, select 'Create' and do it that way
4. If you want to translate, hit 'play' and you will be randomly thrown onto the end of a chain that you're able to translate and told which language to translate to.
5. Standard 5 day rules apply, after 5 days the text will be released back into the pile.

How it selects the languages:
At this stage, there is two levels of competency "Can translate" and "If necessary". There is really no difference between them at this stage, other than it will pick the "Can translate" ones first. It will always give you the oldest text in the database that you're able to translate from (regardless of level). If all goes well, I will allow an option to specify what level of translations you want for your games. The selector also makes sure that you go through all your languages before restarting them so that you're not always translating the same languages, so make sure you are actually prepared to translate into it lol.

There are still some limitations to the site, but all the bits to work the game fundamentally will work (including reminder emails when you get close to your deadline! :P)

If you can think of any features that would make it better for you, please let me know.

Naturally, please don't join and say "it sucks, I can't translate anything". Naturally, it relies on there being sufficient players with sufficient languages (just like the real games).

Any other comments are welcome :)

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby loqu » 2012-05-16, 11:15

That's quite a piece of hard work, hashi.

Can I tell you a bug I found?
If I select a language and then state my level of capability to translate, if I add another language, those levels I stated get reset.

Plus, I think the levels should be more detailed, I mean, it's not the same if we're signing up for a regular BTG or for a Fubar, is it? For example, I would offer to translate into Dutch for a fubar, but not for a regular BTG.

Thanks for the good work!! I already signed in and introduced my info.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 11:19

loqu wrote:That's quite a piece of hard work, hashi.

Can I tell you a bug I found?
If I select a language and then state my level of capability to translate, if I add another language, those levels I stated get reset.


Did you read the instructions? :P I wanted to do it that way, but the level of code needed is crazy, maybe when I have time to write it I will ;)

Plus, I think the levels should be more detailed, I mean, it's not the same if we're signing up for a regular BTG or for a Fubar, is it? For example, I would offer to translate into Dutch for a fubar, but not for a regular BTG.


Yep, again, this would require a heap more code. I want to make sure things will work well as they are at the moment. What other levels would you put in (they're easy enough to actually code in...).

Thanks for the good work!! I already signed in and introduced my info.


No problem :) I should start a text and see how it goes.

Also, there will be languages missing, but the ones I have put in so far are the ones used in BTGs to this date. Lemme know if you need more (let's not try make them too obscure >.>, remembering someone has to translate out of it).

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby loqu » 2012-05-16, 11:38

I didn't read the instructions, I just noticed them after posting here :oops: so I guess that will happen to lots of people :mrgreen:

About the levels... don't really know. Maybe we can get used to these classifications. Or add some level of "tolerance" when creating a chain, so that "if necessary" languages can get picked more often for fubars.

I guess you're working on it right now, because each time I press on "Members" I get a different page in return :)
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

melski
Posts: 1121
Joined: 2012-02-17, 1:13
Location: Nantes
Country: FR France (France)

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby melski » 2012-05-16, 11:53

I registered ! I find it a very good idea. Maybe you could add a "native" level so that the language gets picked up less often
loqu wrote:I guess you're working on it right now, because each time I press on "Members" I get a different page in return :)

I don't have any issue with that
................Native: French (fr) French
................Fluent: English (en) English , Italian (it) Italian
.........Intermediate: German (de) German, Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Portuguese
.........Conversational: Catalan (ca) Catalan, Spanish (es) Spanish
....................Learning: Wallisian (East Uvean / faka'uvea) (wls) Wallisian (topic here)

User avatar
kibo
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 6942
Joined: 2003-12-16, 18:35
Gender: male
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby kibo » 2012-05-16, 11:57

I registered too :D
Goals:
 (es) ➜ C1 (DELE)
 (de) ➜ B2 (Goethe-Zertifikat) / C1
 (sv) ➜ B1/B2

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 12:04

loqu wrote:I didn't read the instructions, I just noticed them after posting here :oops: so I guess that will happen to lots of people :mrgreen:


:D it's ok :)

About the levels... don't really know. Maybe we can get used to these classifications. Or add some level of "tolerance" when creating a chain, so that "if necessary" languages can get picked more often for fubars.


Yeah, a lot of the stuff is tentative, so I am open to suggestions :)

I guess you're working on it right now, because each time I press on "Members" I get a different page in return :)


Fuck, you weren't supposed to have access to that page. Sorted now :P (Apparently I decided that restrict is better spelled as qestritc). :whistle:

Edit: I've finished tinkering with the members page so it's open now. I realised that there was no way of seeing other members so I had to make it quickly.

Edit 2: I've also started a game so you guys get a feel for it. First in first serve with the translation of it lol.

User avatar
BlackZ
Posts: 1115
Joined: 2010-07-16, 20:53
Real Name: JSR
Gender: male
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby BlackZ » 2012-05-16, 12:37

hashi wrote:Edit 2: I've also started a game so you guys get a feel for it. First in first serve with the translation of it lol.

I clicked in "play", but the following appeared:

"Warning: mysql_num_rows(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/hashi/public_html/btg/2/play.php on line 129

Warning: mysql_num_rows(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/hashi/public_html/btg/2/play.php on line 129

Warning: mysql_num_rows(): supplied argument is not a valid MySQL result resource in /home/hashi/public_html/btg/2/play.php on line 129

Warning: in_array() [function.in-array]: Wrong datatype for second argument in /home/hashi/public_html/btg/2/play.php on line 159"
Native:  (pt-br)
Learning:  (en-us)  (fr)  (ja)  (es)  (ca)  (de)

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: Broken Translation Game 16

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 12:41

@BlackZ: Thanks, it's best if you PM me this information though :) There was a slight typo, hopefully it works now :)

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: BTG²

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 14:12

Just a note: Please feel free to create a/some game(s) yourself :P It will help get the ball rolling rather than everyone waiting around for two texts :)

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: BTG²

Postby loqu » 2012-05-16, 16:23

Wow, four texts already, that is nice.

I just translated one, but it was into Spanish. I think I'll mark Spanish as "only if necessary".
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: BTG²

Postby hashi » 2012-05-16, 21:13

loqu wrote:Wow, four texts already, that is nice.

I just translated one, but it was into Spanish. I think I'll mark Spanish as "only if necessary".


Yeah if you've got it marked as "Can translate", it will eventually come up. I have changed a few things and if you have a language as "if necessary", you will only translate TO it if your "Can translate" languages are all removed for some reason (like the language already being used in the game, or there being no one else to translate it).

Footnote: It's not well tested, so here's hoping :D

User avatar
loqu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 11835
Joined: 2007-08-15, 21:12
Real Name: Daniel
Gender: male
Location: Sevilla [seˈβiʝa] (Andalucía), born in Cádiz [ˈkaði]

Re: BTG²

Postby loqu » 2012-05-17, 10:32

There's something I don't quite get...

so in this edition of the game, we only play when we press play, isn't it?

It's not like chains are automatically arranged and you're selected to translate at some point. Am I wrong?

And when do chains end? Is there the possibility that chains are infinite?
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

User avatar
hashi
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9170
Joined: 2008-11-02, 2:39
Gender: male
Country: NZ New Zealand (New Zealand / Aotearoa)
Contact:

Re: BTG²

Postby hashi » 2012-05-17, 11:00

loqu wrote:There's something I don't quite get...

so in this edition of the game, we only play when we press play, isn't it?

It's not like chains are automatically arranged and you're selected to translate at some point. Am I wrong?

And when do chains end? Is there the possibility that chains are infinite?


You are right. The reason I went with this style of game is the other way would rely on waiting for people to sign up, and there's a lot more waiting involved for participants. This way, when you feel like translating something or have some time, you can get a text immediately (assuming there is one available for you). I do admit it is frustrating not knowing what languages will be translated through, but I guess it adds an element of surprise too. The other thing I like is no one can see the text progression, not even the creator of the game, so it is a surprise for everyone at the end :P

While the game is in Beta, the chains are fixed to just five translations while we build a member-base and I build up the full infrastructure. I originally plan to allow the creator to choose how long the chain will be able to get to (with a cap of course).

On a side note, I have added some more common languages. If you need any more let me know. I built a thing in the back-end to make it easier for me to add them :)


Return to “Games”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest