Lowena's Frisian thread

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Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-01, 19:50

Since it seems I'm going to actually study West Frisian now, I thought I'd made this thread to ask some questions.

1) Is 'r' dropped at the end of a word when the next word starts with t, d, n, l, s, or z? For example, "...fierder dwaan" I know the first 'r' is dropped, but I'm not sure about the second.

2) In the following sentence:

"Dêr kin ik wol sêd fan wurde."

Is it more common to say "dêrfan" or "dêr ... fan"? Is "dêrfan" even possible?

3) Which, if any, consonants in the word "rieplachtsje" are dropped? I'd figure the 't' is dropped, but I'm not sure.

Tanke wol! :D
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-02, 17:18

I'm so glad to see a learner's topic here. If you have any questions, you can always send me a private message, too.

Lowena wrote:1) Is 'r' dropped at the end of a word when the next word starts with t, d, n, l, s, or z? For example, "...fierder dwaan" I know the first 'r' is dropped, but I'm not sure about the second.
The final 'r' in Frisian is always very "light", so that's why it might sound as if it is dropped, but I would say it's generally not dropped. Unfortunately, I never learned Frisian except for the writing, so it's a little bit hard to be sure about the rules and stuff, that's why I made a recording, which will probably be useful: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0RaGAQeIoiy

Lowena wrote:2) In the following sentence:

"Dêr kin ik wol sêd fan wurde."

Is it more common to say "dêrfan" or "dêr ... fan"? Is "dêrfan" even possible?
Dêrfan is possible, yes. I wouldn't be able to say which one is more commonly used, I would say they're equally common.

Lowena wrote:3) Which, if any, consonants in the word "rieplachtsje" are dropped? I'd figure the 't' is dropped, but I'm not sure.
I'd say no consonant is dropped. My pronunciation of the word: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0923wxTTOuV
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-02, 19:28

Tige tank, Reinder! I've been wanting to learn West Frisian for awhile, and recently just found out that there's a native speaker of West Frisian at a weekly group I've been going to, and she said she'd love to help me and speak with me in it. So, now that I know a speaker of it in person, there's nothing really holding me back. I don't really like chatting with people online; I prefer face-to-face.

The only thing I really lack is a comprehensive English<>Frisian dictionary. There's one by Afûk that sounds really good, but unfortunately it's out of print, and I can't find it for sale anywhere for less than about 109 euros. But I have an adequate English<>Frisian wordlist, and a very good Dutch<>Frisian dictionary, so I can do English<>Dutch<>Frisian if I have to. :D

The final 'r' in Frisian is always very "light", so that's why it might sound as if it is dropped, but I would say it's generally not dropped. Unfortunately, I never learned Frisian except for the writing, so it's a little bit hard to be sure about the rules and stuff, that's why I made a recording, which will probably be useful: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0RaGAQeIoiy

Do you mean you only learned to speak Frisian and not write it? Because I thought it was your native language.

Dêrfan is possible, yes. I wouldn't be able to say which one is more commonly used, I would say they're equally common.

In that case I'd prefer "dêrfan" since it's easier for me to understand the sentence when they're not split up.

I'd say no consonant is dropped. My pronunciation of the word: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0923wxTTOuV

In your recording, it sounds like 'ch' isn't pronounced fully. Like, maybe it's turned into [h] or pre-aspiration or something. Or maybe my hearing is just bad!

The only course for Frisian I have is this course, which has only 15 very short lessons. There is eduFrysk, which long ago had a course-in-progress in English, but it seems it's only in Dutch now. It has a lot of videos and texts with recordings that would be of use, though. But, since Frisian really isn't too different from English, and I have a lot of experience with German and some with Dutch, it wouldn't be hard to learn just by reading and listening to things in Frisian. I love using The Little Prince to learn other languages, so when that arrives I'll start working my way through that, along with practicing some here and with the aforementioned native speaker. :)
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-03, 7:34

I still remember that you thought my bilingual posts were really helpful, so I'll write my posts bilingual again.

Ik kin my noch herinnerje datst myn twatalige berjochten hiel handich fûnst, dus dan skriuw ik myn berjochten no ek mar wer eefkes twatalich.

Lowena wrote:Tige tank, Reinder! I've been wanting to learn West Frisian for awhile, and recently just found out that there's a native speaker of West Frisian at a weekly group I've been going to, and she said she'd love to help me and speak with me in it. So, now that I know a speaker of it in person, there's nothing really holding me back. I don't really like chatting with people online; I prefer face-to-face.
Oh wow, that's really cool. There are not so many native speakers of West Frisian, so that's really cool you know one in real life now.

O wauw, dat is echt super. Der binne net safolle memmetaalsprekkers fan it Frysk, dus datst der no ientsje yn it echt kinst is echt super.

Lowena wrote:The only thing I really lack is a comprehensive English<>Frisian dictionary. There's one by Afûk that sounds really good, but unfortunately it's out of print, and I can't find it for sale anywhere for less than about 109 euros. But I have an adequate English<>Frisian wordlist, and a very good Dutch<>Frisian dictionary, so I can do English<>Dutch<>Frisian if I have to. :D
You mean the dictionary by Anne Dykstra? There's three pages of that dictionary here (last three pages of the document) to see what it's like. Unfortunately it seems a little bit hard indeed to get a English - Frisian dictionary.

Bedoelst it wurdboek fan Anne Dykstra? Hjirre binne trije pagina's út it boek (de lêste trije pagina's fan it dokumint) om te sjen hoe't it wurdboek derút sjocht. Spitigernôch liket it yn bytsje lestich om oan in Ingelsk - Frysk wurdboek te kommen.

Lowena wrote:Do you mean you only learned to speak Frisian and not write it? Because I thought it was your native language.
I meant to say that learning to speak it came naturally, I didn't make any effort, because it's my native language. I only had to learn how to write it by myself later, which was never taught. In fact, regarding to the Frisian Wikipedia only 17% of the people living in Friesland can actually write Frisian.

Ik bedoelde te sizzen dat it praten fansels kaam, dêr haw ik gjin muoite foar dien, omdat it myn memmetaal is. Ik moast allinnich letter sels noch leare skriuwe, dat is my noait leard. Neffens de Fryske Wikipedy kin mar 17% fan de minsken dy't in Friesland wenje ek echt Frysk skriuwe.

Lowena wrote:In your recording, it sounds like 'ch' isn't pronounced fully. Like, maybe it's turned into [h] or pre-aspiration or something. Or maybe my hearing is just bad!
Mm, this might be laziness. It should probably be pronounced as [x], but in some contexts that might just take too much effort, haha. I'm really a beginner in phonology, so I'm sorry for not being able to clear this up for you.

Mm, dit is miskien ek loaiens. It soe wierskynlik útsprutsen wurde moatte as [x], mar yn sommige konteksten kostet dat miskien te folle muoite, haha. Ik bin in begjinner yn fonology, ik kin it dy spitigernôch net dúdlik útlizze.

Frisian shouldn't be too hard if you have experience with that many Germanic languages.

It Frysk soe eins net te lestich wêze moatte ast erfaring hast mei safolle Germaanske talen.

It's really cool to see when someone's interested in my tiny native language, haha. If you have any questions, just feel free to contact me at any time. :)

It is echt moai om immen te sjen dy't ynteressearre is yn myn lytse memmetaaltsje, haha. Ast fragen hast dan kinst my altyd in berjochtsje stjoere. :)
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-03, 19:57

I'm just going to quote your English replies so the post isn't extremely long.

Reinder wrote:I still remember that you thought my bilingual posts were really helpful, so I'll write my posts bilingual again.

Yes, they are very useful, especially with Frisian since I can already understand a lot of it. Many of the words I don't know can be pretty easily figured out without a dictionary with bilingual replies. :)

Oh wow, that's really cool. There are not so many native speakers of West Frisian, so that's really cool you know one in real life now.

Yep! I was very surprised when she said she speaks it since there are only about half as many speakers of it as Basque. :D The probability of a Frisian speaker going to the same, small group of gender minorities in my area is pretty dang low.

You mean the dictionary by Anne Dykstra? There's three pages of that dictionary here (last three pages of the document) to see what it's like. Unfortunately it seems a little bit hard indeed to get a English - Frisian dictionary.

That's the one. It would be awesome to have, but I don't think it's worth USD$133 plus shipping to me. I could buy it, but that money could be far better spent elsewhere, and it's not that important. Like I said, I can get by fine with what I have now. Although the direct translation without Dutch as the middleman, along with the examples sentences, would be quite helpful.

Is "hjirre" an emphatic form of "hjir", possibly? What is "hoe't" a contraction of? I was thinking its "hoe it" (as the third person singular pronoun) but that would be redundant, unless that's the point.

I meant to say that learning to speak it came naturally, I didn't make any effort, because it's my native language. I only had to learn how to write it by myself later, which was never taught. In fact, regarding to the Frisian Wikipedia only 17% of the people living in Friesland can actually write Frisian.

It's a shame that Frisian isn't held in very high regard as a written language. I think it would be much better if the language were used a lot more in schools and just anywhere, but I'm not Frisian, so I don't know how Frisian speakers feel about it. But I do get the feeling that some people are starting to prefer Dutch over Frisian, even if Frisian is their native language.

Mm, this might be laziness. It should probably be pronounced as [x], but in some contexts that might just take too much effort, haha. I'm really a beginner in phonology, so I'm sorry for not being able to clear this up for you.
Haha, OK, that make sense. Yeah, it does take quite a bit of effort to pronounce "chtsj" in the middle of a word.

It's really cool to see when someone's interested in my tiny native language, haha. If you have any questions, just feel free to contact me at any time. :)

I can imagine. :D Well, my native language is English, but I'm always surprised and happy when I come across people that have similar interests to me in real life, since they're pretty rare. Probably a similar feeling. ;)

I've read all of your Frisian responses in your post here, and it's very easy to read. Most of the words I didn't know I could figure out from context and the English version, and only had to look up about 10 or so. I probably wouldn't know most of the words if you were to ask me to write in Frisian at this point, but I'll start practicing here very soon.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-04, 17:24

Lowena wrote:Yep! I was very surprised when she said she speaks it since there are only about half as many speakers of it as Basque. :D The probability of a Frisian speaker going to the same, small group of gender minorities in my area is pretty dang low.
We actually always say that Frisians are everywhere, so this proves it once again, haha.

We sizze altyd dat Friezen oeral binne, sa sjochst mar wer, haha.

Lowena wrote:That's the one. It would be awesome to have, but I don't think it's worth USD$133 plus shipping to me. I could buy it, but that money could be far better spent elsewhere, and it's not that important. Like I said, I can get by fine with what I have now. Although the direct translation without Dutch as the middleman, along with the examples sentences, would be quite helpful.
I looked for Frisian<>English dictionaries in the internet, too, but I couldn't find any either.

Ik haw ek nei Frysk<>Ingelsk wurdboeken socht op it ynternet, mar ik haw ek neat fine kind.

Lowena wrote:Is "hjirre" an emphatic form of "hjir", possibly?
I suppose it is, but it can also be used as a synonym of "hjir", since "hjir" would also work in my sentence.

Ik tink it wol, mar it kin ek as synonym fan "hjir" brûkt wurde, "hjir" soe nammentlik ek goed wêze in myn sin.

Lowena wrote:What is "hoe't" a contraction of? I was thinking its "hoe it" (as the third person singular pronoun) but that would be redundant, unless that's the point.
As far as I'm concerned it a contraction of "hoe" and "dat", so it would actually be "om te sjen hoe dat it wurdboek derút sjocht", but instead the contracted form is used.

Foar safier't ik wit is it in gearfoeging fan "hoe" en "dat", dus it soe eins "om te sjen hoe dat it wurdboek derút sjocht" wêze moatte, mar yn stee dêrfan wurdt de gearfoege foarm brûkt.

Lowena wrote:It's a shame that Frisian isn't held in very high regard as a written language. I think it would be much better if the language were used a lot more in schools and just anywhere, but I'm not Frisian, so I don't know how Frisian speakers feel about it. But I do get the feeling that some people are starting to prefer Dutch over Frisian, even if Frisian is their native language.
Actually I think people are more willing to use Frisian now then they were before. They got a big campaign going on, which is called "Praat mar Frysk", and most Frisian youth seem to be quite possitive about the Frisian language, although a lot still prefer Dutch.

Ik leau eins dat it Frysk no leaver brûkt wurdt as foarhinne. Der is sels in grutte kampanje, dy't "Praat mar Frysk" hjit, en de measte jonge Friezen lykje aardich posityf te wêzen oer it Frysk, alhoewol't der natuerlik noch wol in soad binne dy't leaver Nederlânsk prate.

Lowena wrote:I've read all of your Frisian responses in your post here, and it's very easy to read. Most of the words I didn't know I could figure out from context and the English version, and only had to look up about 10 or so. I probably wouldn't know most of the words if you were to ask me to write in Frisian at this point, but I'll start practicing here very soon.
It's good to analyze first. It's really good you already understand most of what I'm saying, because my constructions in Frisian differ quite from those I use in English.

It is goed om earst in bytsje te analysearjen. It is echt hiel goed datst it measte fan wat ik sis al ferstean kinst, want myn konstruksjes yn it Frysk ferskille nochal fan de konstruksjes dy't ik yn it Ingelsk brûk.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-04-04, 18:08

Please keep the conversation in this thread and not in pm's, it's so interesting to read!
The English is easier to read for me than the Frisian, I'd like to have a bigger passive understanding...
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-08, 2:36

I apologize for not having posted in a few days. I was very busy doing things. :shock: I'm going to study some tonight and hopefully will be able to resume regular study tomorrow.

Also, I just got De Lytse Prins in the mail like 15 minutes ago :woohoo: For some reason the mail was super late today, but I'm just about to take a good look at it. So, now with that I can progress much faster.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-16, 17:51

Ive still been very busy lately. :oops: But I'm still learning Frisian!

I have a couple questions.

1) Does "ús mem" mean "my mother" if the listener isn't related to you?

2) What does this mean?

"Hoe âld is dy dan?"

It's translated as "How old is she then?" but that doesn't make sense...

3) Is "Frysk" pronounced "Friesk" in some dialects? The speaker that I know pronounced it like that, but I didn't think to ask her.

Tankje wol! :)
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-04-16, 18:33

Lowena wrote:Ive still been very busy lately. :oops: But I'm still learning Frisian!

I have a couple questions.

1) Does "ús mem" mean "my mother" if the listener isn't related to you?


If this is true, then it's the same as in Brabantic :shock: We say: 'Ons mam' in stead of 'My mother', also to people who have a different mother :lol:
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-16, 18:44

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Lowena wrote:Ive still been very busy lately. :oops: But I'm still learning Frisian!

I have a couple questions.

1) Does "ús mem" mean "my mother" if the listener isn't related to you?


If this is true, then it's the same as in Brabantic :shock: We say: 'Ons mam' in stead of 'My mother', also to people who have a different mother :lol:

Basque does it too (gure ama), so it's not too uncommon. :) English does similar things with we and us, but not in this way.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Weerwolf » 2014-04-16, 18:48

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Lowena wrote:Ive still been very busy lately. :oops: But I'm still learning Frisian!

I have a couple questions.

1) Does "ús mem" mean "my mother" if the listener isn't related to you?


If this is true, then it's the same as in Brabantic :shock: We say: 'Ons mam' in stead of 'My mother', also to people who have a different mother :lol:

English dialects do it as well.
My English teacher from Manchester once said that people from Northern England use 'our + name of relative' for 'my + name of relative'.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-16, 19:36

Lowena wrote:"Hoe âld is dy dan?"
Does "How old is it then?" make sense? To ask how old she is would be "Hoe âld is se dan?" and asking how old he is would be "Hoe âld is er dan?".

Lowena wrote:3) Is "Frysk" pronounced "Friesk" in some dialects? The speaker that I know pronounced it like that, but I didn't think to ask her.
Frysk is very often pronounced as "Friesk", I don't know where this initially came from, but I hear it all the time pronounced like that.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-16, 20:33

Reinder wrote:
Lowena wrote:"Hoe âld is dy dan?"
Does "How old is it then?" make sense? To ask how old she is would be "Hoe âld is se dan?" and asking how old he is would be "Hoe âld is er dan?".

Ah! I didn't know "dy" also means "that". That makes a lot more sense now!

Lowena wrote:3) Is "Frysk" pronounced "Friesk" in some dialects? The speaker that I know pronounced it like that, but I didn't think to ask her.
Frysk is very often pronounced as "Friesk", I don't know where this initially came from, but I hear it all the time pronounced like that.

Gotcha. She also said something about "/geɪ̯/ Frysk", something about it being hyperstandardized and no one deally speaks that way. Do you know anything about that? I don't even know how to spell the word. :P
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-17, 8:59

Lowena wrote:Ah! I didn't know "dy" also means "that". That makes a lot more sense now!
Yeah, for example "dy hûn" means "that dog".

Lowena wrote:Gotcha. She also said something about "/geɪ̯/ Frysk", something about it being hyperstandardized and no one deally speaks that way. Do you know anything about that? I don't even know how to spell the word. :P
Yeah, that's called Geef Frysk. That would be the Utopian Frisian. Under the influence of Dutch a lot of Frisian words are no longer used in daily speech. Instead frisianized Dutch words are used. Geef Frysk would be the Frisian where all the Frisian words are still used instead of the frisianized Dutch words.

Ja, dat hjit Geef Frysk. Dat is in bytsje it Utopyske Frysk. Under de ynfloed fan it Nederlânsk wurde der in protte Fryske wurden net mear brûkt yn 'e sprektaal. Yn stee dêrfan wurde ferfryske Nederlânske wurden brûkt. Geef Frysk soe dan it Frysk wêze, dy't gjin ferfryske Nederlânske wurden hat, mar allinnich mar de echte Fryske wurden.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-17, 17:26

Reinder wrote:
Lowena wrote:Gotcha. She also said something about "/geɪ̯/ Frysk", something about it being hyperstandardized and no one deally speaks that way. Do you know anything about that? I don't even know how to spell the word. :P
Yeah, that's called Geef Frysk. That would be the Utopian Frisian. Under the influence of Dutch a lot of Frisian words are no longer used in daily speech. Instead frisianized Dutch words are used. Geef Frysk would be the Frisian where all the Frisian words are still used instead of the frisianized Dutch words.

Ah, I guess I didn't realize there were two f's together there. I don't know how I'd distinguish loanwords from native words, especially since Frisian and Dutch aren't distantly related to begin with, so many words are naturally similar. Hopefully I don't learn too many "geve wurden" that would make me sound like I'm trying to speak Geef Frysk.

And thank you for the continuous bilingual posts! I understood all that without having to look up any words or even stop and think of the meaning of a word.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-18, 8:05

Lowena wrote:Ah, I guess I didn't realize there were two f's together there. I don't know how I'd distinguish loanwords from native words, especially since Frisian and Dutch aren't distantly related to begin with, so many words are naturally similar. Hopefully I don't learn too many "geve wurden" that would make me sound like I'm trying to speak Geef Frysk.
You wouldn't hear the two f's, since you'd have to make too much effort to pronounce them both, haha. As I'm writing here, I do use Geef Frysk, but in daily speech I say for example "Nederlâns" instead of "Nederlânsk".

De twa f'en hearst net, dat kostet fierstente tefolle muoite om beide út te sprekken, haha. Ik skriuw hjir altyd wol yn it Geef Frysk, mar as ik gewoan praat dan sis ik bygelyks "Nederlâns" yn stee fan "Nederlânsk".
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-04-23, 17:12

If you could talk here how you would normally that'd be awesome. I have books and stuff that I can learn more formal Frysk from, so seeing some informal language would be very helpful. :)

I have a question about the West Frisian /s/. Is it normally like the English /s/ of most dialects (laminal) or the Dutch /s/ (apical)? I seem to hear both, so maybe it varies from area to area.

Also, is the /a/ like pronounced [ɑ] or [a]? Wikipedia and other places say that it's the former, but I seem to hear [a].
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Reinder » 2014-04-24, 15:36

Lowena wrote:If you could talk here how you would normally that'd be awesome. I have books and stuff that I can learn more formal Frysk from, so seeing some informal language would be very helpful. :)
I can try to use less "Geef Fryske wurden", but it'll be a little hard to write speech language. I don't want to make too many mistakes either.
(What I just wrote is how I usually speak.)

Ik kin probearje wat minder Geef Fryske wurden te brûken, mar it wurdt in bytsje lestich om sprektaal te skriuwen. Ik wol hjir ek net tefolle fouten (gever: flaters) meitsje.
(Wat ik krekt skreaun haw is hoe't ik normaal ek praat.)


Lowena wrote:I have a question about the West Frisian /s/. Is it normally like the English /s/ of most dialects (laminal) or the Dutch /s/ (apical)? I seem to hear both, so maybe it varies from area to area.
I'm sorry, I'm not that advanced in phonetics yet.

Sorry, sa goed bin ik noch net yn fonetyk.

Lowena wrote:Also, is the /a/ like pronounced [ɑ] or [a]? Wikipedia and other places say that it's the former, but I seem to hear [a].
An [ɑ] would be a short <a>, which means that it's an <a> in a closed syllable. <a>s in open syllables should be pronounced as [a]

In [ɑ] soe in koarte <a> wêze moatte, dat betsjut1 in <a> yn in sletten wurdlid2. <a>'s yn iepen wurdlidden2 soenen as [a] útsprutsen wurde moatte.

Common mistakes:
1) "betekent" is often used instead of "betsjut", but is a Dutch word.
2) "letergreep" would be the word used for "wurdlid", but is a Dutch word, although it'd be pronounced according to the Frisian phonology rules.
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Re: Lowena's Frisian thread

Postby Lauren » 2014-05-01, 6:11

Well, thanks for trying, at least!

I said my first sentence in Frisian to my friend today, after spending like 20 minutes trying to find the word for "shirt". She said "oerhimd" is like a tank top, and a "boesgroentsje" is a dress shirt, but she didn't know a word for t-shirt. Do you know of one? Do you just use a Dutch or English word? She also pronounced "boesgroentsje" like "begroentsje" which I thought was weird, but maybe it's dialectal or she just misspoke.
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