Random language thread 5

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Luís » 2017-07-13, 17:27

So, High Valyrian is now available on Duolingo... :P
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Yasna » 2017-07-13, 20:12

Does "Kånken" mean anything, or is it just a name? I see those backpacks everywhere these days.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-14, 0:24

If I understand this correctly, then kånken means 'the rooster' in some dialect of Swedish spoken in Jämtland, and the Standard Swedish equivalent is tuppen.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Naava » 2017-07-14, 8:41

This one claims it comes from 'to carry'. Well, there seems to be a verb 'kånka' but at least my dictionary says it's more like 'to drag' than 'to carry'. It'd make more sense than a rooster, though.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-14, 12:37

Naava wrote:This one claims it comes from 'to carry'.

Is the author/write being facetious or serious when they wrote this:
By using two straps instead of just one, the weight of heavy school-books was spread evenly on both shoulders meaning less strain on the back.
Did all knapsacks before the invention of the kånken only have one strap? Or were only over-the-shoulder bags used? I'm a little confused because having two straps on a knapsack seems pretty standard and commonplace to me.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Naava » 2017-07-14, 13:25

dEhiN wrote: Did all knapsacks before the invention of the kånken only have one strap? Or were only over-the-shoulder bags used?

I don't think so. :lol: Looks like they tried to be funny while writing that, but I don't think that the verb kånka is too far away from the name kånken. Who knows, maybe kånken was chosen because it sounds like kånka? I've tried to search but I haven't found any info about the history of the bag so looks like we can only guess where the name came from.

Do you know if any other products from Fjällräven have animals as their names? I tried to look but couldn't find anything. At least fjällräven itself is an animal. Hmm...

//Edit: I found this. I don't know if it was the same in Sweden though, and I'm still suspicious if the bags before Kånken had only one strap or if they really looked different from our modern backpacks. I think my mum has said they used one-strap-bags (around 1950-1960) but I don't know if it was just her school.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-14, 15:37

Naava wrote:This one claims it comes from 'to carry'. Well, there seems to be a verb 'kånka' but at least my dictionary says it's more like 'to drag' than 'to carry'. It'd make more sense than a rooster, though.

I thought it might have come from a personal name and the name itself might have come from the word for 'rooster'. I did consider the verb (Wiktionary translates it as 'to lug'), but ?kånken does not appear to be a possible form of that verb in Swedish. (Though again, maybe that's only in Standard Swedish in Sweden or something).

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-14, 18:03

Naava wrote:
Vlürch wrote:
Naava wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
wat

How the fuck is /z/ only pronounced [t͡ʃ]?

When is it even pronounced [t͡ʃ]? I'm quite sure I've never heard anyone pronouncing it like that.

But... it's the most common pronunciation ever, or at least that's how pretty much everyone I've ever known has pronounced it and I'm sure some newsreaders and whatnot have, because hearing [t͡s] always strikes me as a weird pronunciation. :o

What?? I could swear I've never heard it. Maybe it is a Helsinki thing indeed.

Do you really pronounce Zimbabwe and natsi with [t͡ʃ]? Do you also call the letter z 'tsheta'?

Well, yeah... like I said, though, it might actually be [t͡ɕ] or [t͡s̠ʲ] or something. Still, whatever the exact sound is, it's definitely closer to [t͡ʃ] than [t͡s].

Also, I just noticed watching the news that Yle no longer uses the letter <š> even in Russian names, instead replacing it with <sh>... :cry:

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-14, 19:47

Vlürch wrote:Well, yeah... like I said, though, it might actually be [t͡ɕ] or [t͡s̠ʲ] or something.

But maybe it's [t͡s̠], with an apical alveolar fricative. The apical fricative can sound more like [ʃ] to some people than like [s] especially if their [s] is laminal.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-15, 1:58

vijayjohn wrote:But maybe it's [t͡s̠], with an apical alveolar fricative. The apical fricative can sound more like [ʃ] to some people than like [s] especially if their [s] is laminal.
Yesh, that'sh why Cashtilian Shpanish, Catalan and Bashque shound like their shpeakersh have a shpeech impediment, or posshibly are deschended from Sean Connery. Sho doesh Dutch.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-16, 5:57

I'm pretty sure this is everything I can even think of saying in Telugu (and then a few trivial variations of this like "I like those mangoes, and the fruit is very good"): Hello, sir. He is eating rice. I like those pieces of fruit, and this mango is very good. Drink water! Have you gotten it now? Oh God, life is a success! The love story is sweet, right? No, there is no pig or horse in the house. Languages are failures :?: in thirty days. That window is big. This is my father, mother, and grandmother. The small tiger is not a cat. The girl has jammi plants. :?: My land is theft. Look! Say! My knowledge of Telugu is zero.
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But maybe it's [t͡s̠], with an apical alveolar fricative. The apical fricative can sound more like [ʃ] to some people than like [s] especially if their [s] is laminal.
Yesh, that'sh why Cashtilian Shpanish, Catalan and Bashque shound like their shpeakersh have a shpeech impediment, or posshibly are deschended from Sean Connery. Sho doesh Dutch.

I happened to come across a few videos of a CD program called Explorers of the New World that I used to like playing around with as a kid, but most of them are in Spanish. I'm not sure what variety of Spanish this is. It has both the apical esh and dishtinthión (link for ignorant gringosh), but also omits word-final d, which I thought was more of a Latin American thing en realidá, so maybe it's some variety of Andalusian Spanish?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN8fhpxh3Es
Around 2:35 to 2:46: "Cortésh y shush nuevosh aliadosh indiosh she dirigieron entonthesh al interior, hathia Tenoctitlán, mientrash que Moctethuma, informado por eshpiash y menshajerosh, vigilaba shu avanthe con nervioshishmo."
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2017-07-16, 6:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Saim » 2017-07-16, 6:33

Dropping final -d is not uncommon among Castilians, and I'm pretty sure I've even heard native Catalan speakers[1] doing it. In fact, I'd say it's the most commom realisation in Spain overall and has more prestige than final devoicing, which is the main pronunciation in Madrid (which people often mockingly refer to as "Madriz"). Approximants aren't that easy to articulate in final position, and of course Spanish isn't particularly allowing with final consonants anyway (carné, anyone?).

In fact, I find the clip you posted to be almost pedantically standard, he even has slightly velarised ls and maintains the traditional pronunciation of <ll> (which I do too but that's Catalan influence more than anytging else).

[1] Most native Catalan speakers devoice it and move it back to dental [t], as in Catalan.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-16, 6:54

Oh OK, that makes sense. [ˈgraθjas̠]!

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Serafín » 2017-07-16, 6:58

I do hear word-final /d/ as [ð̞] in that video, but I don't hear <ll> as [ʎ]. I had never heard the word fiereza either.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-16, 14:13

vijayjohn wrote:I happened to come across a few videos of a CD program called Explorers of the New World that I used to like playing around with as a kid, but most of them are in Spanish. I'm not sure what variety of Spanish this is. It has both the apical esh and dishtinthión (link for ignorant gringosh), but also omits word-final d, which I thought was more of a Latin American thing en realidá, so maybe it's some variety of Andalusian Spanish?
En realidá, Ehpañol eðrops way more consonans than you wou thing from ow is written, mang.
Around 2:35 to 2:46: "Cortésh y shush nuevosh aliadosh indiosh she dirigieron entonthesh al interior, hathia Tenoctitlán, mientrash que Moctethuma, informado por eshpiash y menshajerosh, vigilaba shu avanthe con nervioshishmo."
Aixquirôzu! Djíxi himãendjizi a mím óvi dji Pôhtuguêix.
Saim wrote:Approximants aren't that easy to articulate in final position, and of course Spanish isn't particularly allowing with final consonants anyway (carné, anyone?).
I'm not sure what you mean. All I found for carné was a loan from French carnet, which doesn't have a final consonant to begin with.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby OldBoring » 2017-07-16, 21:20

linguoboy wrote:Shëngjin totally looks like it should be the name of a city in China but it's actually in Albania.

This reminds me when in Italy some Jeohvah's witnesses saw our Chinese name on the intercom, rang me and asked me (in the typical foreigner's accent with wrong tones): "[ni dz dao ʃɛndʒɛn ma]?". I replied "我不是深圳人!(I'm not from Shenzhen — a city in China)" but out of curiosity of some Italian strangers speaking Chinese I let them up, and only then I realised they were talking about 圣经 shèngjīng (the Bible) and not 深圳 Shēnzhèn (the city).

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Last night, my parents were talking about how the house my brother and sister-in-law recently bought is apparently close to a bar. They might use that to their advantage; taking care of a child can be hard sometimes. My parents started joking about them potentially getting drunk, and then I made a joke about how my brother might get drunk and ask his wife in Malayalam whether she spoke Malayalam. This had them nearly roaring with laughter. It's still making my dad laugh this morning.
I feel like something is getting lost in cultural translation here. Is the joke that overseas Malayalees often ask each other if they speak Malayalam when they first meet? Or is that just a random example of a silly question a drunk person might ask?

I think it's because his brother's wife is not Malayalee but a Hindi speaker.

vijayjohn wrote:Chinese uses <ë>?

Nah, that's not what Vlürch meant:
Vlürch wrote:I would've thought it was the Albanian transcription of something Chinese, since no other language that I know of uses both the digraph <sh> and the letter <ë>.


linguoboy wrote:I think they were simply following the normal rules of English orthography under which ch is [t͡ʃ].

Yeah. Tbh, most Italians are familiar enough with "ch" being pronounced /tʃ/ in English, that it's the default pronunciation for words of any language, not only English. For example the Chinese surname Chen is usually pronounced /tʃɛn/ and not /kɛn/.

I think it's quite common to apply the most common pronunciation rule (or what people think it's the most common one) for loanwords. For the same reason, Italians say /'ɛminem/, /'milan/, /'mantʃester/, /'vjɛtnam/, /'bangladeʃ/, and even /'pɛrformans/ because most words in English have the stress on the first syllable.
It's also why many non-English speakers say Nike /'najk/ because final -e is usually silent in English.

I used to think that Chicago with /ʃ/ was a Chicago dialect thing... only later I realised it's the standard English pronunciation (at least everywhere in the US).
I've been wondering if Chicago with /tʃ/ is common among non-American English speakers.

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-16, 21:45

I know academia.edu is basically a scam, but still, I thought I'd ask because I randomly got a notification that someone mentioned me on academia.edu... did someone on this forum upload something there where they referenced a post I posted here or something? :?

Like, most likely it's just a mistake or an attempt to get me to pay for having registered there once upon a time for some reason, but I guess maybe there's like a 0.1% chance it isn't... but I have no way of finding out, since I'm definitely not going to upgrade to a premium account and that'd be the only way to see where I was mentioned (since they even mention that it won't be able to be found on Google... wtf?) or even if I was, and paying known scammers to find out about a mistake or a typo or something... well, yeah, not even in my dreams with my money situation. :roll:
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:But maybe it's [t͡s̠], with an apical alveolar fricative. The apical fricative can sound more like [ʃ] to some people than like [s] especially if their [s] is laminal.
Yesh, that'sh why Cashtilian Shpanish, Catalan and Bashque shound like their shpeakersh have a shpeech impediment, or posshibly are deschended from Sean Connery. Sho doesh Dutch.

It could be, but at least when I say "Zimbabwe", I'm pretty sure there's something palatal going on. If I remember, I'll record myself saying a few words with Z in them tomorrow (well, technically, later today...) to get some clarity on whether everyone I know has just some weird speech imediment that's infected me as well or if it's actually just [t͡s̠~t̠͡s̠~t̻͡s̠~t̻͡s̻] or whatever tiny insignificant differences there are to similar sounds. :P

Also, on the topic of Spanish: is there any dialect where /s/ is pronounced as [ɬ] or something else lateral?

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-16, 23:50

OldBoring wrote:out of curiosity of some Italian strangers speaking Chinese I let them up

You've told me this story before, but now I'm trying to figure out what this means.
mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Last night, my parents were talking about how the house my brother and sister-in-law recently bought is apparently close to a bar. They might use that to their advantage; taking care of a child can be hard sometimes. My parents started joking about them potentially getting drunk, and then I made a joke about how my brother might get drunk and ask his wife in Malayalam whether she spoke Malayalam. This had them nearly roaring with laughter. It's still making my dad laugh this morning.
I feel like something is getting lost in cultural translation here. Is the joke that overseas Malayalees often ask each other if they speak Malayalam when they first meet? Or is that just a random example of a silly question a drunk person might ask?

I think it's because his brother's wife is not Malayalee but a Hindi speaker.

Oh, yeah, there's that, too. :blush:
vijayjohn wrote:Chinese uses <ë>?

Nah, that's not what Vlürch meant:
Vlürch wrote:I would've thought it was the Albanian transcription of something Chinese, since no other language that I know of uses both the digraph <sh> and the letter <ë>.

I was confused by what he meant by "no other language" - no other language besides what? Besides Albanian? Or besides Albanian and Chinese? (Then he clarified that he meant besides Albanian).
I used to think that Chicago with /ʃ/ was a Chicago dialect thing... only later I realised it's the standard English pronunciation (at least everywhere in the US).
I've been wondering if Chicago with /tʃ/ is common among non-American English speakers.

I have never heard anyone ever pronounce this word with /tʃ/ in any language.
Vlürch wrote:It could be, but at least when I say "Zimbabwe", I'm pretty sure there's something palatal going on.

Well, of course. That's what happens when you have a consonant just before a front vowel.
Also, on the topic of Spanish: is there any dialect where /s/ is pronounced as [ɬ] or something else lateral?

Not that I know of

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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby dEhiN » 2017-07-17, 2:52

I saw this on an FB post a few days ago, and thought I'd post it here to see what others think:
DEoWNKDW0AAEG3r.jpg


Do you agree? Disagree? Why or why not? I've never looked into or researched anything about Europe and non Indo-Europeans, so I have no reference to say whether this picture is plausibly correct or not.
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Re: Random language thread 5

Postby razlem » 2017-07-17, 3:07

dEhiN wrote:Do you agree? Disagree? Why or why not? I've never looked into or researched anything about Europe and non Indo-Europeans, so I have no reference to say whether this picture is plausibly correct or not.


Non-IE migration patterns were affected by IE settlers, not to mention that very little is known about European non-IE groups at all. No way to tell who would've had more power when, etc.

But it's fun to think about :grin:
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