Random language thread 5

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 6025
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Osias » 2017-07-05, 0:30

Eu não chamaria esse texto de "uma história". É um monte de musings, como eu chamaria em português? Um monte de filosofices, um rant, sei lá.

Estou surpreso que há vários deles que soam mais pra Brasil que pra Portugal.

O sotaque de Salvador não é o que eu esperaria de alguém de Salvador, estereotipicamente. Mas sei lá. O do Rio está leve, sem 'puxar' demais os esses.
2017 est l'année du  (fr) et de l' (de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10307
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Real Name: Μέγας Αλέξανδρος
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-05, 6:05

OldBoring wrote:A user from Wordreference told me that in English the e-schwa and the a-schwa are not phonemically distinct, so it doesn't matter. But to a German ear they are different sounds.
I feel that in English words spelled with a final -a or with -er (in non-rhotic accents) sound more like /a/ then like schwa, so I guess they are a-schwas, i.e. [ɐ].

Try saying words like nigga, gangsta, mothafucka, brotha, sista. Them ain't no schwa, bro.
It is when I say it. It only sounds like [ɐ] if it's emphasized.

Allekanger
Posts: 245
Joined: 2012-04-12, 19:41
Real Name: Alex
Gender: male

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Allekanger » 2017-07-05, 19:23

All afternoon I've been asking my co-worker how to say things in Thai, which she speaks natively (we work in gardening, so depending on the task we can chitchat while we work). I didn't know a single word in Thai before, but I think I know about thirty words or so now! But what's more interesting is that I learn it only through listening to and parroting her. I assumed there would be tones in Thai, so I minded her pronunciation in that too, but I'm not going to pretend that I got any of them right. Some seemed more distinct than others though. But I really enjoyed learning words in Thai this way. It made the language feel a lot more natural than many of the languages I've tried to learn through books. With books and more formal resources I get kinda caught up with "exactness" in pronunciation and grammar, but now I feel like all that can easily wait a while. For now I'm just having fun learning.

It all actually reminds me of the time when we went to Italy for two weeks with my high school group. I stayed with an Italian family who didn't know much English. But since I knew some Spanish from school, I could make out enough of their Italian to know what they're were saying and also learn Italian words by listening. Later I would see a words written and realize I actually knew them. With Thai though I'm completely illiterate. :silly:
Når trollmora lagt di elva små trolla å bunde fast dom i svansen
Då sjunger o sakta för elva små trolla di vackresta orl o känner
O aj aj aj aj buff...


- svenska, English, español, 日本語, eesti keel, (julevsámegiella, kalaallisut).

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5349
Joined: 2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name: Francesco
Gender: male
Location: Loma
Country: IT Italy (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby OldBoring » 2017-07-05, 20:27

mōdgethanc wrote:
OldBoring wrote:A user from Wordreference told me that in English the e-schwa and the a-schwa are not phonemically distinct, so it doesn't matter. But to a German ear they are different sounds.
I feel that in English words spelled with a final -a or with -er (in non-rhotic accents) sound more like /a/ then like schwa, so I guess they are a-schwas, i.e. [ɐ].

Try saying words like nigga, gangsta, mothafucka, brotha, sista. Them ain't no schwa, bro.
It is when I say it. It only sounds like [ɐ] if it's emphasized.

But you ain't no non-rhotic speaker.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19829
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-05, 21:02

Shëngjin totally looks like it should be the name of a city in China but it's actually in Albania.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15550
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-06, 12:47

Last night, my parents were talking about how the house my brother and sister-in-law recently bought is apparently close to a bar. They might use that to their advantage; taking care of a child can be hard sometimes. My parents started joking about them potentially getting drunk, and then I made a joke about how my brother might get drunk and ask his wife in Malayalam whether she spoke Malayalam. This had them nearly roaring with laughter. It's still making my dad laugh this morning.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10307
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Real Name: Μέγας Αλέξανδρος
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-06, 16:54

vijayjohn wrote:Last night, my parents were talking about how the house my brother and sister-in-law recently bought is apparently close to a bar. They might use that to their advantage; taking care of a child can be hard sometimes. My parents started joking about them potentially getting drunk, and then I made a joke about how my brother might get drunk and ask his wife in Malayalam whether she spoke Malayalam. This had them nearly roaring with laughter. It's still making my dad laugh this morning.
I feel like something is getting lost in cultural translation here. Is the joke that overseas Malayalees often ask each other if they speak Malayalam when they first meet? Or is that just a random example of a silly question a drunk person might ask?

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19829
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-06, 19:55

One of the workman who came to repair the floor apologised for the fact that the didn't have what they needed to finish the job and would be back in the morning. That the was the first I noticed he was Irish.

Dude, keep talking to me in that accent and you can come back tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that. Doesn't matter that I'm not scheduled to work over the weekend; I'll be here.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts: 468
Joined: 2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender: male
Location: Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-06, 21:04

Why does literally every analysis of the way Finnish deals with /z/ claim that it becomes [s~ts~t͡s], when literally everyone I've ever heard pronounce it pronounces it as [t͡ʃ] in just about every context? The only people who half-consistently pronounce it as [s~ts~t͡s] are some TV presenters and I guess it could be that maybe Swedish-speakers do as well. Like, my brother occasionally actually pronounces it as [z], but that sounds ridiculous, and just the thought of hearing it replaced by [s] IRL makes me cringe. If it was said to be [ts~t͡s] as a really broad transcription, that would be understandable, considering the lack of phonemic distinction between [s] and [ʃ] except in loanwords (and some eastern dialects, possibly only those transitional between the Karelian dialects of Finnish and the Karelian language?), but that's not what's meant, so... what the fuck.
OldBoring wrote:A user from Wordreference told me that in English the e-schwa and the a-schwa are not phonemically distinct, so it doesn't matter. But to a German ear they are different sounds.
I feel that in English words spelled with a final -a or with -er (in non-rhotic accents) sound more like /a/ then like schwa, so I guess they are a-schwas, i.e. [ɐ].

Try saying words like nigga, gangsta, mothafucka, brotha, sista. Them ain't no schwa, bro.

Maybe it's not about the height of the vowel, but the frontness/backness? What if it's some kind of a distinction between [ə̠] and [ə̟] or whatever? Like, "brother" [brɑðə̟] and "brotha" [brɑðə̟].
linguoboy wrote:Shëngjin totally looks like it should be the name of a city in China but it's actually in Albania.

I would've thought it was the Albanian transcription of something Chinese, since no other language that I know of uses both the digraph <sh> and the letter <ë>. Analysing it as <Shëng.jin> makes it seem Chinese, but if you consider that it's <Shën.gjin>, it does look unmistakably Albanian. Looking it up on Wikipedia, interestingly, the county it's located in is called Lezhë, which also looks like Chinese.

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 8925
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-07-06, 21:23

I wonder how exactly we ended up pronouncing "Chicago" [t͡ʃi'kago] in Italian. I mean, it follows neither English pronunciation (which has [ʃ] instead of [t͡ʃ]) nor Italian spelling rules, otherwise it would be pronounced [ki'kago]. I wonder if people thought the city name had Spanish origins.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19829
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby linguoboy » 2017-07-06, 21:59

IpseDixit wrote:I wonder how exactly we ended up pronouncing "Chicago" [t͡ʃi'kago] in Italian. I mean, it follows neither English pronunciation (which has [ʃ] instead of [t͡ʃ]) nor Italian spelling rules, otherwise it would be pronounced [ki'kago]. I wonder if people thought the city name had Spanish origins.

I think they were simply following the normal rules of English orthography under which ch is [t͡ʃ].

IME, German-speakers pronounce it the same way as Italians (i.e. as if Tschikago).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts: 468
Joined: 2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender: male
Location: Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-06, 22:03

IpseDixit wrote:I wonder how exactly we ended up pronouncing "Chicago" [t͡ʃi'kago] in Italian. I mean, it follows neither English pronunciation (which has [ʃ] instead of [t͡ʃ]) nor Italian spelling rules, otherwise it would be pronounced [ki'kago]. I wonder if people thought the city name had Spanish origins.

What, Chicago isn't /t͡ʃikago/ in Egnlish? I had to check on the Finnish Wikipedia and even that gives the phonetic transcription as "šikago", even though every time it's been said in the news or wherever, it's been /t͡ʃikɑgo/ as far as I can have told*... not that there'd be much news about Chicago on Finnish news, so nobody would really care if it was pronounced as /t͡ʃikɑgo/ instead of the correct /ʃikɑgo/. Or maybe it's correctly /t͡ʃikɑgo/ in Finnish similarly to how you said it's /t͡ʃikago/ in Italian, and what the Finnish Wikipedia means is that in English it's /ʃikago/...?

Googling "Tšikago" has mostly Estonian results and Finnish transcription of Russian "Чикаго". So, logically, if that's how it's pronounced in Estonian and Russian, it should be pronounced /t͡ʃikɑgo/ in Finnish, but maybe we're poshnuggets and pronounce it like it's pronounced in English, and I've just misheard it because I assumed based on how it's written that it'd be pronounced with /t͡ʃ/...?

*Is "can have told" even a thing? Just "could tell" would imply that at the time I could tell it was /t͡ʃikɑgo/ instead of /ʃikɑgo/, but I don't have infallible memory so I'm only going by how I think I've heard it; I'm pretty sure that I would've noticed if it was /ʃikɑgo/, but again, I'm not 100% certain, so "can have told" is the logical way to put it. Probably incorrect, but well.

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 8925
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-07-06, 22:21

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I wonder how exactly we ended up pronouncing "Chicago" [t͡ʃi'kago] in Italian. I mean, it follows neither English pronunciation (which has [ʃ] instead of [t͡ʃ]) nor Italian spelling rules, otherwise it would be pronounced [ki'kago]. I wonder if people thought the city name had Spanish origins.

I think they were simply following the normal rules of English orthography under which ch is [t͡ʃ].


Right, for a moment I forgot that <ch> can be [t͡ʃ] in English too.

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5954
Joined: 2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name: Matthew
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-07-06, 22:54

Vlürch wrote:*Is "can have told" even a thing? Just "could tell" would imply that at the time I could tell it was /t͡ʃikɑgo/ instead of /ʃikɑgo/, but I don't have infallible memory so I'm only going by how I think I've heard it; I'm pretty sure that I would've noticed if it was /ʃikɑgo/, but again, I'm not 100% certain, so "can have told" is the logical way to put it. Probably incorrect, but well.
"Can have told" is not a thing. You want "as far as I can tell".
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15550
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-07, 0:12

mōdgethanc wrote:I feel like something is getting lost in cultural translation here. Is the joke that overseas Malayalees often ask each other if they speak Malayalam when they first meet? Or is that just a random example of a silly question a drunk person might ask?

In fact, I'm not entirely sure why it made them laugh so hard myself. But this morning, I made another joke about getting drunk, and that also made my dad laugh pretty hard, at which point he said I should write a story about people getting drunk. I'm beginning to get the idea that the only real reason they think this is that funny is because I come up with these creative lines for drunk people, complete with an imitation of a drunkard's voice in Malayalam, despite barely ever having touched alcohol.
Vlürch wrote:Why does literally every analysis of the way Finnish deals with /z/ claim that it becomes [s~ts~t͡s], when literally everyone I've ever heard pronounce it pronounces it as [t͡ʃ] in just about every context?

wat
I would've thought it was the Albanian transcription of something Chinese, since no other language that I know of uses both the digraph <sh> and the letter <ë>.

Chinese uses <ë>?
What, Chicago isn't /t͡ʃikago/ in Egnlish?

Nope.
every time it's been said in the news or wherever, it's been /t͡ʃikɑgo/

I vaguely mentioned this once, but there is a Malayalam newspaper based in Chicago called Kerala Express. My parents used to subscribe to it. For some unknown reason, they used the most atrocious and hilarious transliterations for placenames in the US. Even the city where they were based IIRC was written as ചിക്കഗോ [t͡ʃikəˈgoː]. My brother's favorite example was Delaware becoming ഡെലാറെ [ɖeˈlaːre].

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts: 468
Joined: 2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender: male
Location: Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Vlürch » 2017-07-07, 1:47

IpseDixit wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I wonder how exactly we ended up pronouncing "Chicago" [t͡ʃi'kago] in Italian. I mean, it follows neither English pronunciation (which has [ʃ] instead of [t͡ʃ]) nor Italian spelling rules, otherwise it would be pronounced [ki'kago]. I wonder if people thought the city name had Spanish origins.

I think they were simply following the normal rules of English orthography under which ch is [t͡ʃ].


Right, for a moment I forgot that <ch> can be [t͡ʃ] in English too.

Imagine the homophones if it wasn't... chit-chat and shit-shat, etc. :D
Dormouse559 wrote:
Vlürch wrote:*Is "can have told" even a thing? Just "could tell" would imply that at the time I could tell it was /t͡ʃikɑgo/ instead of /ʃikɑgo/, but I don't have infallible memory so I'm only going by how I think I've heard it; I'm pretty sure that I would've noticed if it was /ʃikɑgo/, but again, I'm not 100% certain, so "can have told" is the logical way to put it. Probably incorrect, but well.
"Can have told" is not a thing. You want "as far as I can tell".

So, is there any correct way to express exactly what "can have told" expresses using the idiom "can tell"?
vijayjohn wrote:
Vlürch wrote:Why does literally every analysis of the way Finnish deals with /z/ claim that it becomes [s~ts~t͡s], when literally everyone I've ever heard pronounce it pronounces it as [t͡ʃ] in just about every context?

wat

wat
vijayjohn wrote:
I would've thought it was the Albanian transcription of something Chinese, since no other language that I know of uses both the digraph <sh> and the letter <ë>.

Chinese uses <ë>?

Really? I've never seen that. :o
vijayjohn wrote:
What, Chicago isn't /t͡ʃikago/ in Egnlish?

Nope.

Strange how "you learn something new every day" is actually true. :D
vijayjohn wrote:
every time it's been said in the news or wherever, it's been /t͡ʃikɑgo/

I vaguely mentioned this once, but there is a Malayalam newspaper based in Chicago called Kerala Express. My parents used to subscribe to it. For some unknown reason, they used the most atrocious and hilarious transliterations for placenames in the US. Even the city where they were based IIRC was written as ചിക്കഗോ [t͡ʃikəˈgoː]. My brother's favorite example was Delaware becoming ഡെലാറെ [ɖeˈlaːre].

Doesn't seem worse than what for example German and French cities go through in Japanese:
Hamburg > ハンブルク [hã̠mbɯ̟ᵝɾɯ̟ᵝkɯ̟ᵝ]
Stuttgart > シュトゥットガルト [ɕɯ̟̊ᵝtɯ̟ᵝtːo̞ga̠ɾɯ̟ᵝto̞]
Frankfurt > フランクフルト [ɸɯ̟ᵝɾa̠ŋkɯ̟ᵝɸɯ̟ᵝɾɯ̟ᵝto̞]
Le Havre > ル・アーヴル [ɾɯ̟ᵝ a̠ːbɯ̟ᵝɾɯ̟ᵝ]

User avatar
Dormouse559
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5954
Joined: 2010-05-30, 0:06
Real Name: Matthew
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-07-07, 2:16

Vlürch wrote:So, is there any correct way to express exactly what "can have told" expresses using the idiom "can tell"?
With the present: "as far as I can tell". The alternatives "as far as I can remember" or "as far as I'm aware" might emphasize more how you're relying on your recollections/pre-existing understanding.
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15550
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-07-07, 3:35

Vlürch wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Right, for a moment I forgot that <ch> can be [t͡ʃ] in English too.

Imagine the homophones if it wasn't... chit-chat and shit-shat, etc. :D

My brother and I had the same French teacher in high school (but in different years). One of my brother's former classmates was IMing him one day back in the days when AIM was a thing, and she ended the conversation by apologizing for the fact that they didn't have more time "to shit-shat, as [this French teacher] would say."
wat

How the fuck is /z/ only pronounced [t͡ʃ]?
vijayjohn wrote:Chinese uses <ë>?

Really? I've never seen that. :o

No, I'm asking you. I thought maybe you were saying both Albanian and Chinese use <ë>. You really just meant that Albanian uses it, though, right?
Doesn't seem worse than what for example German and French cities go through in Japanese

It is definitely worse because those are just Japanese phonology being applied to those cities whereas in the case I was talking about, it has nothing to do with Malayalam phonology. I have never, ever heard any Malayalees pronounce those city names anything like that. It's more like people taking the concept of spelling pronunciations and then running away with it.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10307
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Real Name: Μέγας Αλέξανδρος
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-07-07, 8:04

IpseDixit wrote:Right, for a moment I forgot that <ch> can be [t͡ʃ] in English too.
That's the default pronunciation of it.

User avatar
Naava
Posts: 241
Joined: 2012-01-17, 20:24
Gender: female
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Random language thread 5

Postby Naava » 2017-07-07, 8:36

vijayjohn wrote:
wat

How the fuck is /z/ only pronounced [t͡ʃ]?

When is it even pronounced [t͡ʃ]? I'm quite sure I've never heard anyone pronouncing it like that.
native:  (fi)
speaks more or less fluently:  (en)
can talk about weird topics in:  (sv)
learning process started:  (ru) &  (et)


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests