Confusion Between Similar Languages

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderator:Forum Administrators

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts:943
Joined:2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender:male
Location:Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)
Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby Vlürch » 2017-05-09, 10:47

IpseDixit wrote:A few days ago I started watching Lost and for the first time in my life I heard entire dialogs in Korean (before that I had never heard more than a few words in isolation and the gangnam song), and - maybe I'm going to sound blasphemous to people who are more expert in these languages than I am - I found it very similar to Japanese, so I started wondering what phonological cues I should pay attention to in order to tell the two languages apart. Any suggestions?

It's Korean if...
...it has syllable-final non-nasal consonants.
...you hear anything lateral that isn't a tap/flap.
...there's Chinese-level aspiration in consonants.
...it has rounded front~central vowels.
...there are consonants followed by /w/.
...there are front vowels preceded by /w/.
...you hear lots of [pj], [bj], [mj] and /ŋj/.
...if it sounds like the speakers have a cold.
...if everyone says "nigga" all the time. :P

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-05-09, 11:35

If there's noticeable aspiration in the consonants at any point, it's surely Korean and not Japanese because Japanese doesn't have (phonemic) aspiration.

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts:943
Joined:2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender:male
Location:Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby Vlürch » 2017-05-09, 13:16

vijayjohn wrote:If there's noticeable aspiration in the consonants at any point, it's surely Korean and not Japanese because Japanese doesn't have (phonemic) aspiration.

True, but there is some aspiration a lot of the time, especially /k/ before back vowels. Definitely not always and nowhere near as much as in Korean, and like you said it's not phonemic, but there is more than there could ever be in Finnish for example; so, at least to my ears as a Finnish-speaker, there is often pretty "noticeable" aspiration in Japanese.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby dEhiN » 2017-05-09, 14:06

I also find that, because Japanese's phonology is syllabic based, you don't get consonant clusters. There is syllable final ん which tends to get realized as a slighlty different nasal depending on the following consonant. But consonant clusters usually tell me it's Korean.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

IpseDixit

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby IpseDixit » 2017-05-09, 14:13

Yeah, the aspiration thing is the only one that I noticed, for a moment I even thought they were speaking some extremely weird form of Chinese.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts:6828
Joined:2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name:David
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby dEhiN » 2017-05-09, 14:28

IpseDixit wrote:Yeah, the aspiration thing is the only one that I noticed, for a moment I even thought they were speaking some extremely weird form of Chinese.

Yeah for me I feel like Korean sounds closer to a Chinese language than Japanese does. Sometimes I get thrown off and think I'm hearing a Chinese dialect, only to realize later that it's Korean. I've also had the opposite happen. I'm sitting in a breakfast place right now, and across from me are two guys who I thought were speaking Korean. Eventually two women joined them, and when the four were talking I clearly started hearing the Mandarin r.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

księżycowy

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby księżycowy » 2017-05-09, 15:26

dEhiN wrote:I also find that, because Japanese's phonology is syllabic based, you don't get consonant clusters.

While Japanese phonology is based on syllables, you do get consonant clusters. Short 'i' and 'u' tend to drop in normal speech, given the right environment.

It reminds me of this song by Scandal where the singer kept singing /aʃɨta/, and (at least to my ears) she kept putting stress on the /i/. I was initially like, "wait, what is that word?" It quickly dawned on me that she was saying 明日 'tomorrow', which I was used to hearing it as /aʃta/.

[Yes, it is considered devoiced, but I'll be damned if my ears can tell the difference between devoiced and dropped in normal speech]

(Forgive the IPA)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-09, 17:55

Vlürch wrote:It's Korean if...
...it has syllable-final non-nasal consonants.
...you hear anything lateral that isn't a tap/flap.
...there's Chinese-level aspiration in consonants.
...it has rounded front~central vowels.
...there are consonants followed by /w/.
...there are front vowels preceded by /w/.
...you hear lots of [pj], [bj], [mj] and /ŋj/.
...if it sounds like the speakers have a cold.
...if everyone says "nigga" all the time. :P

I know many older analyses of Korean claim it has [ø] and [y], but I basically never hear these used in speech. They're replaced with diphthongs (generally [we] and [ɥi], respectively).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Osias
Posts:9754
Joined:2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name:Osias Junior
Gender:male
Location:Vitória
Country:BRBrazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby Osias » 2017-05-09, 17:58

My own rule is...
... I can't recognize a single word.
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.

User avatar
Car
Forum Administrator
Posts:10953
Joined:2002-06-21, 19:24
Real Name:Silvia
Gender:female
Country:DEGermany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby Car » 2017-05-09, 18:39

IpseDixit wrote:A few days ago I started watching Lost and for the first time in my life I heard entire dialogs in Korean (before that I had never heard more than a few words in isolation and the gangnam song), and - maybe I'm going to sound blasphemous to people who are more expert in these languages than I am - I found it very similar to Japanese, so I started wondering what phonological cues I should pay attention to in order to tell the two languages apart. Any suggestions?

I can't help you with that, but I also had that impression when watching Lost. But yet the Korean I heard so far sounded somewhat different. Not as nice as Japanese, but I can't really tell you why, so I'm afraid that's of no use.
Please correct my mistakes!

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6152
Joined:2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name:Francesco
Gender:male
Location:Milan
Country:ITItaly (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby OldBoring » 2017-05-09, 19:53

I also think that Japanese and Korean sounds very similar especially in the intonation, at least in informal speech.
Japanese formal speech tends to use flat high pitches and flat low pitches, as if every syllable was a musical note. While everyday speech Japanese sounds similar to Korean, at least to me.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:27056
Joined:2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name:Vijay John
Gender:male
Location:Austin, Texas, USA
Country:USUnited States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-05-09, 23:52

Vlürch wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:If there's noticeable aspiration in the consonants at any point, it's surely Korean and not Japanese because Japanese doesn't have (phonemic) aspiration.

True, but there is some aspiration a lot of the time, especially /k/ before back vowels. Definitely not always and nowhere near as much as in Korean, and like you said it's not phonemic, but there is more than there could ever be in Finnish for example; so, at least to my ears as a Finnish-speaker, there is often pretty "noticeable" aspiration in Japanese.

To my ears as a Malayalam-speaker, too, but it doesn't really matter.
dEhiN wrote:Yeah for me I feel like Korean sounds closer to a Chinese language than Japanese does.

Chinese loanwords in Korean apparently sound pretty close to their Cantonese equivalents. In Japanese, however, they don't really sound like any particular variety of Chinese AFAIK since they were borrowed from different varieties spoken in different regions of China at different times. That being said, the Wu varieties of Chinese can sound an awful lot like Japanese sometimes. (But then for that matter, Wenzhounese even sounds remarkably like English sometimes).

הענט

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby הענט » 2017-05-13, 7:59

I can distinguish Japanese and Korean. But sometimes it takes me a couple of seconds like the other day when I saw an episode from TBBT and the cab driver was speaking in Korean. My recognition got better after learning some words and watching KBS World.

A week ago I overheard a conversation in what I think was Moldovan, but I'm not sure. It sure sounded like darker Romanian and I think I heard the word vorbesc. But it wasn't as clear as the ads on TV etc.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts:10890
Joined:2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-05-13, 23:13

Vlürch wrote:It's Korean if...
...it has syllable-final non-nasal consonants.
...you hear anything lateral that isn't a tap/flap.
...there's Chinese-level aspiration in consonants.
...it has rounded front~central vowels.
...there are consonants followed by /w/.
...there are front vowels preceded by /w/.
...you hear lots of [pj], [bj], [mj] and /ŋj/.
...if everyone says "nigga" all the time. :P
Those features would be more diagnostic of Mandarin than Korean. As linguoboy pointed out, Korean has mostly lost its front rounded vowels, while Mandarin still has them. Also, the particle 那个 nèige is often misheard as "nigga". Mandarin has all the other features listed here.
[ˈmoːdjeðɑŋk]

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts:943
Joined:2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender:male
Location:Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country:FIFinland (Suomi)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby Vlürch » 2017-05-15, 15:17

mōdgethanc wrote:
Vlürch wrote:It's Korean if...
...it has syllable-final non-nasal consonants.
...you hear anything lateral that isn't a tap/flap.
...there's Chinese-level aspiration in consonants.
...it has rounded front~central vowels.
...there are consonants followed by /w/.
...there are front vowels preceded by /w/.
...you hear lots of [pj], [bj], [mj] and /ŋj/.
...if everyone says "nigga" all the time. :P
Those features would be more diagnostic of Mandarin than Korean. As linguoboy pointed out, Korean has mostly lost its front rounded vowels, while Mandarin still has them. Also, the particle 那个 nèige is often misheard as "nigga". Mandarin has all the other features listed here.

True, but no one could ever mix up Japanese and Mandarin if they've had any exposure to either beyond hearing them randomly spoken without knowing which one it was. Korean and Mandarin, sure, but there's still enough to differentiate them:
- Mandarin has toes, Korean dosen't (some dialects do, but based on what I've read, not as defined as in Chinese)
- Mandarin has retroflex consonants, Korean doesn't
- Mandarin doesn't have word/syllable-initial [pj], [bj] and [mj] (...right? if it does, wtf)
- Korean has syllable-final stops and sibilants, etc. but Mandarin doesn't
- Korean has more English loanwords than Mandarin and they're more obvious
- Koreans make tons of cute uguu~ sounds, the Chinese don't nearly as much

PS: I realised I accidentally mixed up the brackets and slashes in the previous post... :oops: Not that it really matters, but since [ŋj] is the only one of those that doesn't happen word-initially, writing it as a phoneme is even less true than of the others.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts:25540
Joined:2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name:Da
Location:Chicago
Country:USUnited States (United States)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby linguoboy » 2017-05-15, 15:23

Vlürch wrote:- Mandarin has retroflex consonants, Korean doesn't

Standard Mandarin does, but many common varieties lack them. Colloquial Taiwanese Mandarin speakers, for instance, merges them with the alveolar series, as do most L2 speakers from the entire southern half of China and the diaspora.

Vlürch wrote:- Korean has syllable-final stops and sibilants, etc. but Mandarin doesn't

Korean does not have syllable-final sibilants on the surface level. The syllable final stops may be difficult to recognise because they are phonetically unreleased.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts:10890
Joined:2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender:male
Location:Toronto
Country:CACanada (Canada)

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby mōdgethanc » 2017-05-15, 19:13

Vlürch wrote:True, but no one could ever mix up Japanese and Mandarin if they've had any exposure to either beyond hearing them randomly spoken without knowing which one it was. Korean and Mandarin, sure, but there's still enough to differentiate them:
The question is whether someone naive to both could mix up Korean and Mandarin, not Japanese and Mandarin. While I've mistaken Korean for Japanese before, it would also be easy enough to mistake it for Chinese.
- Mandarin has toes, Korean dosen't (some dialects do, but based on what I've read, not as defined as in Chinese)
Tones are not easy to distinguish for someone who isn't used to them.
- Mandarin has retroflex consonants, Korean doesn't
What he said + the retroflex and alveolopalatal series in Mandarin are basically allophones anyway.
- Mandarin doesn't have word/syllable-initial [pj], [bj] and [mj] (...right? if it does, wtf)
Yes it does. Well, more accurately, it has syllable-initial [pj], [pʰj] and [mj], but those would be heard as [bj, pj, mj] by Anglophones. There are many words spelled pian, bian, mian in pinyin and they are realized [pjɛn, pʰjɛn, mjɛn].
- Korean has syllable-final stops and sibilants, etc. but Mandarin doesn't
What he said. Underlying sibilants are realized as (unreleased!) stops in that position.
- Koreans make tons of cute uguu~ sounds, the Chinese don't nearly as much
I don't know what this means, other than being some weeb shit.
[ˈmoːdjeðɑŋk]

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts:6152
Joined:2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name:Francesco
Gender:male
Location:Milan
Country:ITItaly (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Confusion Between Similar Languages

Postby OldBoring » 2017-05-15, 20:57

linguoboy wrote:Colloquial Taiwanese Mandarin speakers, for instance, merges them with the alveolar series, as do most L2 speakers from the entire southern half of China and the diaspora.

Except they are not necessarily L2 speakers. A lot of young people are native speakers of Mandarin with a strong regional accent.


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 12 guests