Preferred name for "American"

[linguoboy]

Yes, Napoleon was an imperialist and a tyrant. Pre-20th century history is full of those.

Different jurisdictions coming together as equals to establish neutral standards is a damn recent invention in the history of our species. Before the late 18th century, pretty much any time you see people from different backgrounds adopt the same standard, it's the result of some form of imperialism.

[IpseDixit]

This is quite a complicated issue but, by and large, I don't think it's all so relative. I mean, words have a history behind, a history that doesn't change depending on one's language. I think calling black people negr is still fucked up, even though it might look totally normal to Russians, because of all the history behind that word. Likewise, calling Native Americans Indianer looks for assholes to me, even though all Germans think it's ok.

[Sol Invictus]

# that moment when you find out a foreign language uses a word from a term that's racist in your native language but # it's not racist because it's # "a different language and therefore not inherently racist"

Do you know that language well enough to judge that it is racist in that language despite what they say? Loanwords often don't retain any additional meaning they might have had in the original language and are changed so much that they are distinct from terms that are homonyms in the original language. Meanwhile your prefered terms might translate to something that is more racist for them or have complitely different meanings

i'm really starting to hate Europeans as a whole

Because of dozens of different cultures and languages on this continent a few use a term that is simmilar to something that is offensive in your language/culture?

[linguoboy]

This is quite a complicated issue but, by and large, I don't think it's all so relative. I mean, words have a history behind, a history that doesn't change depending on one's language.

But words are also language-specific and so are their histories.

This debate is so larded with the etymological fallacy it's painful.

[linguoboy]

I feel I should point out that Koko's feelings about the offensiveness of "Indian" aren't generally shared by Native Americans on my side of the border. The preeminent website for news on what's happening in Native communities here is Indian Country Today. (They also share stories on Canadian First Nations.) Here in Chicago, we have the American Indian Center which has been Indian-run since its founding. Unless there's been a big shift since 1995 (when the last nationwide survey was taken), the term preferred in the US by Native Americans themselves is "American Indian" with just shy of 50% of votes. ("Native American" is in second place with 37% and 6% have no preference.)

[mōdgethanc]

I don't see what's so bad about Russians using a cognate of "negro" when it doesn't have any racist connotations. The fact that the word for "black" is considered polite and respectful in English while being derogatory in Russian surely shows that what's racist and what isn't depends on the context and the language in question.

[md0]

I was going to mention also how Greek for other-lander (alloðapós), while specifically coined to be politically correct, is nowadays far more derogatory than foreigner (xénos) which it meant to replace.

So not only different context, but also within a language. There's this euphemism treadmill thing going on. Changing the words does not change the attitudes. And while words do matter, a social movement that is focused so much on words neglects the causes to run after the symptoms.

[Koko]

I know this too, and it angers me as well. Like thanks family, for letting people continue to use this word for us.

It's just so wrong. Like, some dude in the 1700's comes over, calls us Indians because he thought he was in india, and people just accept it. I hate this planet and the people who inhabit it. God should never have created us. Or for you non-creationists, whatever theory you believe in (big bang or string) should never have happened.

We say we're evolved, but nah.

[vijayjohn]

This reminds me of the fact that I often have trouble relating to other Americans of Indian descent. I remember when a few of us were talking about how a lot of Indians took offense to a certain column by Joel Stein in Time magazine and I said neither my dad nor I got what they were so upset about because neither of us found it offensive. That's probably in part because there are, for example, Indians who have been subjected to gang violence by racist white people in some parts of this country just because they were Indian, whereas I have never heard of such a thing here, let alone personally experienced it.

I also remember that when I was growing up, the people it was hardest for me to get along with was other Malayalee kids. I remember one guy who had the exact opposite perspective of our heritage from me. I was fascinated with it; he couldn't be more distant from it.

[Koko]

Thank you Ipse, the only one who seems to understand.

@ the Europeans who don't get my point: I don't understand how you guys decided what was positive or negative if you've never directly interacted with us.

[linguoboy]

I know this too, and it angers me as well. Like thanks family, for letting people continue to use this word for us.

How often do you talk to the rest of your "family"? Do you have any notion what their reasons are for preferring this designation over the other options?

[Koko]

Basically every other First Nations I know in person is as adverse to the term indian as i am; i've really only met like… one? who used it.

[vijayjohn]

But there are more people who are indigenous to the Americas than just the ones you personally know, and they don't necessarily all have the same perspective on that term.

[linguoboy]

Basically every other First Nations I know in person is as adverse to the term indian as i am; i've really only met like… one? who used it.

Do you know any Native Americans from this side of the border?

[Koko]

No

(Dunno what else to say, but i don't feel right with just posting a single word, so here's an explanation to give more [irrelevant] substance)

[Koko]

Looks like most agree on "Native American", "indigenous," or "Native."

Only three prefer Indian (*cringe as i write*), one of which only because it's commonly used, but likes "indigenous" as well.

I think you guys need to do new survey with the option of choosing more than one term.

[vijayjohn]

Looks like most agree on "Native American", "indigenous," or "Native."

I realize these are six prominent Native Americans, but even so, just six people does not make a representative sample of all the Native Americans in the US.

Only three

In this case, that's half of your sample size.

[Koko]

Well, neither does one small red* boy on a website dominated by a non-Native population. At least they have some authority on the issue. And it's more like 2.5/6 so barely a minority, since one also likes "indigenous" whereas the other two PREFER "indian"

The fact that is just 6 people is also the reason i said "make a new survey America!!" anyway

* yeah, no, understand the sarcasm here please

[vijayjohn]

At least they have some authority on the issue.

Yes, of course, but so do other Native Americans here in the States, surely - including people who are not Diné, O'odham, Apache, Dakota, Numa, Tlingit, or Yurok.

[Koko]

> on this side of the border
But those people are on that side