Random language thread 4

This is our main forum. Here, anything related to languages and linguistics can be discussed.

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-10, 19:30

Is it really that much of a mystery? It kind of reminds me of Nuosu's syllabic consonants.

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6210
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Johanna » 2017-03-10, 19:47

razlem wrote:Can someone explain to me how. the. HELL. you make this sound?

[ð̩ʲ˕ː]

Apparently it's a in dialect of Norwegian ??? And spelled <i> ?????

It looks like it might be an extreme form of the "buzzing i" in some Swedish dialects and accents that especially Gothenburg is famous for, but you can hear along the entire coast from there and almost to the Norwegian border, and in one or two other places nowhere near that area.

I would describe that particular sound, which phonemically is /iː/, as a cross between [ɨː] (or maybe [iː]) and [z]. /yː/ gets the same treatment.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-11, 7:04

Two things I learned by reviewing notes I took on the seminar my advisor taught on language contact:

1. The grey in greyhound has nothing to do with the color but rather comes ultimately from either a cognate with or a lexical adoption from the Old Norse word for 'female dog'.

2. 'Calf muscle' in (presumably Vlax) Romani is mačho le punrresko. That literally means 'fish of the foot/leg'.

User avatar
Vlürch
Posts: 403
Joined: 2014-05-06, 8:42
Gender: male
Location: Roihuvuori, Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Vlürch » 2017-03-11, 9:48

razlem wrote:Can someone explain to me how. the. HELL. you make this sound?

[ð̩ʲ˕ː]

Like when you say "the", place the tip of your tongue behind your upper front teeth and instead of keeping the surface of your tongue from touching the palate, you let it touch the palate with minimum friction, and instead of making any vowel sound, you buzz lightly for the duration of the vowel. In a nutshell, say "the" with an extremely hyper-exaggerated Russian accent.

Now, if you asked how to make this sound... :lol:
[ᵐʘ̰͡ʛ̥̃͜ɗ̼̊͡ɬ̼̃ʷˤ]

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-11, 16:08

Vlürch wrote:In a nutshell, say "the" with an extremely hyper-exaggerated Russian accent.

[d͡ʑʝːːːiː]

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 3494
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-03-12, 9:21

razlem wrote:Can someone explain to me how. the. HELL. you make this sound?

[ð̩ʲ˕ː]

Apparently it's a in dialect of Norwegian ??? And spelled <i> ?????

I asked a linguist friend, and he said it looks like a "syllabic long palatalised (inter)dental approximant". He also added, "as best as I could guess, it'd be the /i:/ vowel pronounced with slight dental articulation as well". Hope that helps.
Follow my TAC 2017 here.

(N)  (en-CA) | (B2)  (fr) | (B1)  (pt-BR) | (A2)  (es-CO) | (A1)  (ja) (ko) (sv) (ta-LK)
(A0)  (de) (fy) (haw) (hi) (hu) (id) (it) (oc) (oj) (pl) (ro) (sq) (tl) (tr) (zh)

User avatar
'''
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 1748
Joined: 2008-08-29, 14:20
Real Name: Withheld
Gender: male
Location: Canberra
Country: AU Australia (Australia)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby ''' » 2017-03-12, 9:22

razlem wrote:Can someone explain to me how. the. HELL. you make this sound?

[ð̩ʲ˕ː]

Apparently it's a in dialect of Norwegian ??? And spelled <i> ?????



Most of that symbol can be unpacked as merely a long /i/ vowel with a degree of dental or interdental articulation. I guess if you made /i:/ while sticking your tongue between your teeth it'd be close. Probably not a true phoneme in any sense, just a relic of an elided dental
26/♂/hetero/Hu/★☭/PRESCRIPTIVIST
 (en) (hu) - native
 (de) (fr) (fa) - intermediate

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19316
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-15, 20:21

I finally lost it on FB after maybe the tenth time I posted something in not-English only to have some ass reply with "gesundheit". When I confronted the guy (a fellow librarian!) he apologised and said he hadn't intended it to be mocking. How are you supposed to interpret that in a non-mocking way? It's basically saying, "Whatever you just wrote is no more intelligible than a sneeze". I can't understand what drives someone to do this except feelings of inadequacy: I can't understand that, so I'll try to make it look unimportant.

Some of my (multilingual) friends asked if this meant no wordplay and I had to assure them that I encourage it. I love language play, and the more languages you can work in the better. Because this takes some knowledge and creativity and isn't just a boringly predictable and unfunny kneejerk reaction.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Prowler
Posts: 1362
Joined: 2013-07-19, 5:09
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Prowler » 2017-03-15, 20:52

linguoboy wrote:I finally lost it on FB after maybe the tenth time I posted something in not-English only to have some ass reply with "gesundheit". When I confronted the guy (a fellow librarian!) he apologised and said he hadn't intended it to be mocking. How are you supposed to interpret that in a non-mocking way? It's basically saying, "Whatever you just wrote is no more intelligible than a sneeze". I can't understand what drives someone to do this except feelings of inadequacy: I can't understand that, so I'll try to make it look unimportant.

Some of my (multilingual) friends asked if this meant no wordplay and I had to assure them that I encourage it. I love language play, and the more languages you can work in the better. Because this takes some knowledge and creativity and isn't just a boringly predictable and unfunny kneejerk reaction.

I wonder if he's one of those people who walks up to Mexicans and tell them to "this is America. speak English!" :hmm:

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 19316
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby linguoboy » 2017-03-15, 20:54

Prowler wrote:I wonder if he's one of those people who walks up to Mexicans and tell them to "this is America. speak English!" :hmm:

He's Chicano himself!
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Prowler
Posts: 1362
Joined: 2013-07-19, 5:09
Gender: male
Country: PT Portugal (Portugal)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Prowler » 2017-03-15, 20:59

linguoboy wrote:
Prowler wrote:I wonder if he's one of those people who walks up to Mexicans and tell them to "this is America. speak English!" :hmm:

He's Chicano himself!

LOL I guess I should have inquired first.

Btw, apparently some people are afraid of offending of speaking English to non-English speakers in their countries. Many people say that the Parisians are rude but... a lot of times before me and my mother would try to speak French there(hell my mom speaks it very well) they'd just greet us with"GOOD MORNING!" and "welcome!" all in smiles, and this included people who had very thick accents and not os great English. I remember at a place asking for my ice cream flavours and this woman clearly was struggling at understanding my English, so I eventually just had to remember to say "fraise et citron". Her English wasn't very good but she never told me not to speak it or anything. She was very nice.

So yeah, I cannot relate to the "Parisian people are dicks to you if you speak English to them or can't even speak a word of french." I think it's just that many French people simply struggle at English. Maybe some don't like being spoken in English to, but I wouldn't say most are like that. I've also had people coming up to me in broken English asking for directions before... although tbh, they could have been Belgians or Swiss for all I know.

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 3494
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-03-15, 21:25

I started learning a little bit of Chamorro through a site someone posted on the FB UL page: http://learningchamorro.com. It's pretty cool and I'm liking it.

I'm also currently listening to this, which is the Jesus Film in Lendu. I'm so fascinated by the fact that Lendu has implosives, including what are supposed to be creaky-voice implosives. And even though I would've liked to listen to something other than a Christian film, at least the fact that I know the story acts like a bit of an anchor so I can follow along a little, and also pick up the odd word here and there.
Follow my TAC 2017 here.

(N)  (en-CA) | (B2)  (fr) | (B1)  (pt-BR) | (A2)  (es-CO) | (A1)  (ja) (ko) (sv) (ta-LK)
(A0)  (de) (fy) (haw) (hi) (hu) (id) (it) (oc) (oj) (pl) (ro) (sq) (tl) (tr) (zh)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-16, 5:14

There are various so-called tribal languages spoken in Kerala that I honestly would have had no exposure to at all if not for the GRN. Sometimes, I like listening to some of their recordings, especially in the Mannan language, which kind of sounds like it's halfway between Tamil and Malayalam. I appreciate how the Mannan recordings sound like someone genuinely trying to deliver his message in his own words without any of this stupid wannabe clerical pretentiousness of the Malayalam Good News recordings in the GRN.

User avatar
Osias
Posts: 5730
Joined: 2007-09-09, 17:38
Real Name: Osias Junior
Gender: male
Location: Vitória
Country: BR Brazil (Brasil)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Osias » 2017-03-16, 14:11

linguoboy wrote:
Prowler wrote:I wonder if he's one of those people who walks up to Mexicans and tell them to "this is America. speak English!" :hmm:

He's Chicano himself!

There's a "tio do pavê" everywhere.
 (es)  (fr)  (ca)  (sv)  (en-us) (pt-BR) e  (de)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 3494
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-03-16, 17:51

I came across this video of a white woman from either England or Germany (I think) who speaks fluent Sri Lankan Tamil. The interviewer also speaks Sri Lankan Tamil; it appears the video was made by a group called Global Tamil Vision, which is a Tamil TV station operating in Europe for the Tamil diaspora.

At about 2:50, the woman says a short phrase in English, and she says it in, what sounds to me like, a Tamil accent. I understood enough of the video to pick out certain words, but not to understand the context. I believe at the beginning she is talking about speaking/learning Tamil at home and not being able to speak English. There's also a reference to homework and mother. However, I'm not sure if the context is her childhood, and how she came to speak Tamil, or in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-z3dQ03AOs
Follow my TAC 2017 here.

(N)  (en-CA) | (B2)  (fr) | (B1)  (pt-BR) | (A2)  (es-CO) | (A1)  (ja) (ko) (sv) (ta-LK)
(A0)  (de) (fy) (haw) (hi) (hu) (id) (it) (oc) (oj) (pl) (ro) (sq) (tl) (tr) (zh)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-17, 21:11

Okay, I was going to attempt to a transcribe and translate that whole video as well as I could, but it takes too damn long! So I just watched the beginning of the video and attempted to do that for the first three lines instead. I'm afraid I can't make out all the words properly at all, and I have no idea whether I'm getting the spelling right or anything (and just made something up in parts where I really couldn't tell what was being said :P), but I'm trying based on what I know of Tamil (and Malayalam):

பிறப்பினால் ஜெர்மனியராகப் பிறந்து பன்னீரண்டு வயதில் தமிழ் மொழியை கற்கத் துடங்கி இப்பொழுது ஒரு, ஒரு தமிழ் ஆசிரியராகவே மாறியிருக்கும் ஒருவரை சந்திக்க போன்றும். யாழ்ப்பாணத் தமிழில் மிகச் சரளமாக குறியாகணும் அவர். நீங்களேதான் நாம் கூறுவதைவிட நீங்கள் இவரையாகக் காணலாம். வணக்கம்.
We're going to meet someone who was born a German, learned Tamil when she was 12, and who has now even become a Tamil teacher. You will see that she can express herself easily in Jaffna Tamil. We'll meet her, and furthermore, you'll get to meet her, too. Hello.
வணக்கம்.
Hello.
அப்ப கூறுங்கள், பன்னீரண்டு வயதில் எவ்வளவு அணைந்து தமிழ் மொழியை, அதாவது நீங்கள் ஒரு டொய்ச்சுலாண்டில் பிறந்து ஒரு, ஜெர்மனியை பூர்விகமாக நிலக்கும்பொழுது ரண்டு...தாய- எவ்வளவு தமிழ் மொழியை பன்னீரண்டு வயதில் கற்க வேண்டி ஆவல் முழகனிக்க ஏழ்பு விட்டாங்க?
So tell us, when you were twelve, how much Tamil did you...? I mean you were a- born in Deutschland, and when you'd been living entirely in Germany, both of...your par- How much did you have to do in order to learn Tamil when you were twelve?

So IIUC, she moved to Sri Lanka with her parents in 1972 (when she was twelve?) and then forgot her German. Then the reporter asks her whether it's a loss when Tamil people forget their mother tongue just like she forgot hers, and she says (again IIUC) yes, it always takes a toll on you when you forget your mother tongue and while she realizes there are situations where you have no choice but to speak English, she doesn't approve of people mixing lots of English with their Tamil because it makes them lose their vocabulary. She also mentions at least one specific example where some Tamil kid (girl?) was born in England and her parents didn't speak Tamil with her, so then she didn't know her own heritage language. Then the reporter points out that none of this is dubbed and confirms that she really is speaking Jaffna Tamil, and I decided to stop around there, at 3:38.

EDIT: There are so many things I'd like to try transcribing and/or translating! I've been thinking about transcribing the entirety of India Untouched for a while now, for example. The hardest parts for that documentary for me would be the Gujarati and especially Telugu parts.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1597
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby Yasna » 2017-03-19, 2:19

Last night my Lyft driver was speaking Turkish to someone over the phone. I wasn't going to make anything of it, but then someone he knew pulled up beside us at a traffic light and they started speaking Turkish with each other through the window. So after we had started moving again I asked him about the Turkish community in Boston. He told me all about it, but then said that he was actually Kurdish, and his friend in the other car was a Bulgarian Turk. When I told him that the friend I was on my way to go meet was an Iranian Kurd, he became really friendly with me. Then the ride took a turn for the bizarre. We picked up another passenger, a college student that had apparently been drinking all day to celebrate St. Patrick's day. She started video chatting with a couple of her friends and including me in the camera's line of sight. They were clearly drunk as well and tried hard to involve me in the conversation, with one of them showing me an extremely revealing outfit she was trying on, and adding in some fondling of her own breasts for good effect. Then we reached my destination and the night began anew...
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 14868
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-03-19, 3:25

Somehow this managed to remind me that my grandfather (the one whose war memoirs I've been translating) is supposed to be the founder of the Malayalee community in Boston or something like that. He was the first president of the Kerala Association of New England in 1970, when it was founded.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 6795
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby md0 » 2017-03-22, 19:35

So, my pronunciation of the Greek word for binoculars has been annoying a classmate for a while, and he insisted that my pronunciation is peculiar to just me and literally no-one else is saying it that way.
And yesterday he met my brother, who pronounces it the same way as me, and he was quite surprised.

So apparently family-specific dialects are not a myth.

The pronunciation in question is /'kaʎa/ (realised as ['kaʝːa] by me and my brother, because yeísmo), vs the common variant /'caʎa/.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 3494
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 4

Postby dEhiN » 2017-03-22, 20:43

md0 wrote:The pronunciation in question is /'kaʎa/ (realised as ['kaʝːa] by me and my brother, because yeísmo), vs the common variant /'caʎa/.

Yeísmo? What's that? I think for me, ['kaʝːa] would be sufficiently different enough from /'caʎa/ that I would think it's a new word.
Follow my TAC 2017 here.

(N)  (en-CA) | (B2)  (fr) | (B1)  (pt-BR) | (A2)  (es-CO) | (A1)  (ja) (ko) (sv) (ta-LK)
(A0)  (de) (fy) (haw) (hi) (hu) (id) (it) (oc) (oj) (pl) (ro) (sq) (tl) (tr) (zh)


Return to “General Language Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest