Linguistics thread

[Baldanders]

I suppose you could reverse the order of the sentence and replace all the articles with a possessive pronoun in the dative case.

Meiner Mutter ihrer Nachbarn...ihre Katze.

The result seems to me pretty much equal in complexity.

Now, I have no idea if that's actually how it would be phrased, since I have zero knowledge in colloquial German (and little more in the standard language) and couldn't find anything online, but that's beyond the point. The point is this is one conceivable way it might be expressed and there are numerous others yet simpler one can come up with.

There is also the fact that other Germanic languages, such as English, have dealt more elegantly with the loss of the genitive and compensated for it with a far more simple construction; German can also use "von".

Kurzum, what I am trying to say is that I fail to see the mechanism that dictates any decrease in morphological complexity would necessarily translate to an increase in analytical complexity in a manner proportionally inverse to the loss.

[IpseDixit]

Is there a technical term to refer to a language which is fragmented in dialects and which doesn't even have a common standard language, but only the dialects?

[PiotrR]

That'd be a pluricentric language.

[IpseDixit]

That'd be a pluricentric language.

Cool, thanks

[linguoboy]

That'd be a pluricentric language.

IME, that's more often used of a language with multiple well-established national standards, none of which is considered universally binding. English, Spanish, French, Chinese, and even German would all be considered "pluricentric" according to this definition. (But not, say, Arabic, because MSA is accepted as the normative standard everywhere.)

This is a rather different situation than that of a language where no standardised version exists at all. In this case, it is most often some other language entirely which fulfills the role of a "standard" in those domains (e.g. education, governmental administration) which require one. For instance, there is a standard Swiss German different from the Standard German of Germany, but ultimately based on the same Central German dialect (Meissnisch) and differing only in word choice and a few minor points of grammar (e.g. choice of auxiliary in the perfect). There is no standardised form of Alemannic, only more-or-less widely accepted conventions for writing each local dialect. So whereas I would call German a "pluricentric language", I would call Alemannic "a language which lacks a standardised form". (Not very elegant, I know, but I can't think of a more concise term with the same meaninig.)

[razlem]

even German

Really? Are other German dialects taught in schools around the world?

[linguoboy]

even German

Really? Are other German dialects taught in schools around the world?

Actually, they are. (For instance, East Pomeranian in Brasil.)

But that was actually a reference to the fact that Switzerland and Austria have their own versions of Standard German which differ from the standard used in Germany in several points of detail. The differences are less pronounced than those between Standard American English and Standard UK English, but they are significant enough that, as part of Austria's accession agreement, the EU agreed to make use of Austrian lexical equivalents (e.g. Marille for Aprikose) in its official documents.

[kevin]

The most obvious difference between texts written in German and Swiss Standard German is that the latter doesn't have any 'ß', they are completely replaced by 'ss'.

Meiner Mutter ihrer Nachbarn...ihre Katze.

Now, I have no idea if that's actually how it would be phrased, since I have zero knowledge in colloquial German

Yes, constructions like this can occur. When it gets longer than say three components, you would usually start to use "von" in some places ("die Katze von meiner Mutter ihrem Nachbar seiner Frau"), though using only "von" wouldn't be very natural either.

[Baldanders]

I was actually hoping someone will comment on how it would actually be done, thanks!

also, just realized it should be ihrem, not ihrer.

[JackFrost]

even German

Really? Are other German dialects taught in schools around the world?

Sure. Like Pennsylvania Dutch. Can be learnt at Kutztown University at least.

[razlem]

Sure. Like Pennsylvania Dutch. Can be learnt at Kutztown University at least.

But that's a specialty class, like Cajun French is at LSU. When someone takes German to satisfy a requirement, it's most likely going to be Hochdeutsch. I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be, because no other area outside of Europe that speaks German has enough prestige to be economically beneficial to learn for the layman.

[OldBoring]

Is there a technical term to refer to a language which is fragmented in dialects and which doesn't even have a common standard language, but only the dialects?

Dialect continuum?

[linguoboy]

Is there a technical term to refer to a language which is fragmented in dialects and which doesn't even have a common standard language, but only the dialects?

Dialect continuum?

Not exactly the same thing. There can be standard languages overlaid over various segments of a dialect continuum.

The Romance languages are a perfect example. In the Middle Ages, there was a dialect continuum extending from Cabo Fisterra to Istria. Standardised varieties (such as Leonese or Old Provençal) arose over portions of this area but the situation on the ground didn't really change until the rise of centrism and universal education in the wake of the Enlightenment.

[razlem]

Another constructed language question:

Would the creator of a constructed language be a 'native speaker' of that language in terms of proficiency and knowledge of all socio-linguistic properties? Or would the language still be classified as an L2?

[linguoboy]

Would the creator of a constructed language be a 'native speaker' of that language in terms of proficiency and knowledge of all socio-linguistic properties? Or would the language still be classified as an L2?

They would be an L2 speaker. A native language is defined as a language "learned from birth".

Now if a conlanger spoke their constructed language to their children and they learned it from birth, that would be a different story altogether.

[Johanna]

Another constructed language question:

Would the creator of a constructed language be a 'native speaker' of that language in terms of proficiency and knowledge of all socio-linguistic properties? Or would the language still be classified as an L2?

Non-native, and a lot of people who construct languages don't really learn how to speak them anyway.

Coming up with word roots and grammatical rules is a whole lot different from growing up speaking a language, the only difference between the former and learning an already existing language is that you have to invent those roots and rules yourself and don't have the benefit of actual native speakers helping you with their usage.

[razlem]

Why are [n] and [m] considered to be stops?

[vijayjohn]

Well, they're nasals, so you make them by blocking (or stopping, I guess) airflow out of the mouth.

[razlem]

But air still flows out of the nose. This contrasts with sounds like p/t/k, which allow no air out at all.

[Dormouse559]

From what I can tell, when nasals are defined as stops, the definition of "stop" focuses on airflow through the mouth; airflow in other places is secondary. Therefore, from that view, the lowered velum just makes nasals a different kind of stop.