Please post your message bilingually!

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Osias » 2016-12-31, 0:04

 (pt-BR) Vamos tentar de novo.
 (en) Let's try again.

Osias wrote: (pt-BR) Aí já foi erro de digitação.
 (en) That mistake you pointed was something that can more aptly called a typo.

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-12-31, 0:08

:lol:

Malayalam (ml) ചിരിക്കുന്നതിന് പരിഭാഷയില്ല.
American English (en-US) There is no translation for laughing.

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby OldBoring » 2017-01-05, 12:00

 (en) haha
 (es) jaja
 (it) ahah
 (pt-BR) kkkk, huehue, rsrsrsrs
 (zh) 哈哈
 (ru) xaxa
etc.

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Osias » 2017-01-05, 14:05

 (pt-BR) Tô jogando Clash Royale por causa dos meus sobrinhos e odiando.
 (en) I'm playing Clash Royale because of my nephews and hating it.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-05, 23:01

Osias wrote: (pt-BR) Tô jogando Clash Royale por causa dos meus sobrinhos e odiando.
 (en) I'm playing Clash Royale because of my nephews and hating it.

 (pt-br) Por quê?
 (en-ca) Why?
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Osias » 2017-01-06, 23:18

 (pt-br) A gente só perde... a internet dá problema por meio segundo ou às vezes o jogo inteiro, quando volta você perdeu.
 (en) We only lose... internet fails for half a second or sometimes the whole match, when it's back you lost.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-07, 5:39

Osias wrote: (pt-br) A gente só perde... a internet dá problema por meio segundo ou às vezes o jogo inteiro, quando volta você perdeu.
 (en) We only lose... internet fails for half a second or sometimes the whole match, when it's back you lost.

 (en-ca) I think it sounds better to say "...the internet fails...match, and by the time it comes back, you've lost."
 (pt-br) Acho que é melhor a dizer "...the internet fails...match, and by the time it comes back, you've lost."
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Osias » 2017-01-07, 10:49

dEhiN wrote: (pt-br) Acho que é melhor adizer "...the internet fails...match, and by the time it comes back, you've lost."

 (pt-br) Verbos com "ar/er/ir" não precisam de uma partícula equivalente a "to", eles já estão no infinitivo. Falantes de português costumam cometer o mesmo erro ao contrário: não usar o "to".

Mas por que ""the" internet"? Precisa do artigo definido quando é nome próprio?

 (en) Verbs with "ar/er/ir" don't need a particle equivalent to "to", they're already in/on the infinitive. Portuguese speakers use to make the same error but opposite: not using the "to".

But why ""the" internet"? Is it the definite article needed when it's a proper¹ noun?

¹- ?
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-01-07, 20:05

Osias wrote: (en) Verbs with "ar/er/ir" don't need a particle equivalent to "to", they're already in the infinitive. Portuguese speakers use to (often?) make the same error but opposite: not using the "to".

But why ""the" internet"? Is it the definite article needed when it's a proper¹ noun?

¹- ? :yep:

 (fr) "Internet" prend toujours un article défini en anglais, sauf quand il signifie "connexion Internet" (Do you have internet here?). Il y en a qui disent qu'il devrait prendre une majuscule comme un nom propre, mais ce n'est pas du tout une opinion universelle.

 (en-us) "Internet" always takes a definite article in English, except when it means "internet connection" (Do you have internet here?). Some people say it should be capitalized like a proper noun, but that's far from a universal thing.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby dEhiN » 2017-01-07, 20:25

Osias wrote: (pt-br) Verbos com "ar/er/ir" não precisam de uma partícula equivalente a "to", eles já estão no infinitivo. Falantes de português costumam cometer o mesmo erro ao contrário: não usar o "to".

Mas por que ""the" internet"? Precisa do artigo definido quando é nome próprio?

 (en) Verbs with "ar/er/ir" don't need a particle equivalent to "to", they're already in the infinitive. Portuguese speakers use to make the same error but in the opposite direction: not using the "to".

But why ""the" internet"? Is it the definite article needed when it's a proper¹ noun?

¹- ?

 (en-ca) Thank you for the correction. In this case, the definite article is used to specify exactly what you're referring to. We know you're referring to the internet, but it sounds weird to say your sentence without "the". Try replacing "internet" with another noun and you'll see what I mean. Without the definite article, you don't know which instance of the thing is being referred to.

Also, in Portuguese how do you nest quotation marks? In English we alternate between "..." and '...'. So I would write "'the' internet".

 (fi) Kiitos korjauksesta. Tässä tapauksessa määräistä artikkelia käytetään ilmaisemaan tarkasti mihin olet viittaamassa. Tiedämme, että viittaat internettiin, mutta lauseesi ilman 'the'-artikkelia kuulostaa hassulta. Kokeile vaihtaa "internet" muuhun substantiiviin ja ymmärrät mistä on kyse.

Lisäksi, miten portugalissa käyttäydytään, kun lainausmerkit esiintyvät toisien lainausmerkkien sisällä? Englannin kielessä vuorottelevat "..." ja '...'. Siksi kirjoitan "'the' internet".
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Osias » 2017-01-07, 23:16

dEhiN wrote:Try replacing "internet" with another noun and you'll see what I mean.


 (pt-br)Hã... "Obama fails, then I lose"?
 (en)Uh... "Obama fails, then I lose"?

dEhiN wrote:Also, in Portuguese how do you nest quotation marks? In English we alternate between "..." and '...'. So I would write "'the' internet".


 (pt-br)Pra te falar a verdade eu não lembro de ter já visto aninhamento de aspas em português. Nem mesmo em inglês, além de em linguagens de programação e neste fórum. Eu devo ter visto e não reparado e esquecido.

 (en)To tell you the truth I don't remember ever seeing quotation mark nesting in Portuguese. Nor even in English, beyond programming languages and on this forum. I must have seen and haven't noticed and forgot it.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Serafín » 2017-04-13, 2:42

Osias wrote: (pt-br) Verbos com "ar/er/ir" não precisam de uma partícula equivalente a "to", eles já estão no infinitivo. Falantes de português costumam cometer o mesmo erro ao contrário: não usar o "to".

Me sorprende que en portugués se pueda empezar una generalización con sustantivo plural así, sin artículo definido ("Verbos...", "Falantes de português..."). En español (y en francés) tocaría decir "los verbos que terminan en "ar/er/ir" no necesitan una partícula equivalente a to, ya que ya están en el infinitivo. Los hablantes del portugués suelen cometer el mismo error pero al revés: no usan el to".

I find it surprising that in Portuguese you can begin a generalization with a plural noun like this, without a definite article ("Verbos...", "Falantes de português..."). In Spanish (and French) you'd have to say "los verbos que terminan en "ar/er/ir" no necesitan una partícula equivalente a to, ya que ya están en el infinitivo. Los hablantes del portugués suelen cometer el mismo error pero al revés: no usan el to".
Mas por que ""the" internet"? Precisa do artigo definido quando é nome próprio?

En español informal, por cierto, esto es un caos. :) Hay gente que dice "Internet" (tal y como nombre propio), "el internet" así como "la internet". En El Salvador solemos decir "el internet" o incluso "el inter". La RAE recomienda claramente usar "Internet", el nombre propio.

In informal Spanish, by the way, this is chaos. :) There's people who say "Internet" (just like a proper noun), "el internet" as well as "la internet". In El Salvador we usually say "el internet" or even "el inter". The RAE strongly suggests using "Internet", the proper noun.

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby dEhiN » 2017-04-13, 6:14

 (fr) Je pense qu'en portugais, il ne faut pas inclure l'article avec le partitif. Je me souviens quand j'ai appris l'équivalent en portugais de la phrase « je veux du poulet » , qui est « eu quero frango » et pas quelque chose comme « eu quero do frango » ou « eu quero uns frango » . Pour moi ça a été bizarre.

 (en) I think that in Portuguese you don't need to include the article when using the partitive. I remember when I learned the Portuguese equivalent to the phrase "je veux du poulet". It's "eu quero frango" and not something like "eu quero do frango" or "eu quero uns frango", which for me was bizarre!
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Serafín » 2017-04-13, 16:26

I have always disliked the use of this term, the "partitive", mostly because there's basically two partitives in practice:
  1. "Je veux du poulet." - I want [some] chicken. <- the way more common meaning, which is really just an indefinite mass noun marked as such
  2. "Je veux du poulet." - I want some of that [particular] chicken. <- the true partitive, i.e. a part of something, which is usually of definite reference by the way
And the worst part is that most French textbooks I've seen explain the construction with the second, less common meaning, while often giving you exercises of the first one! It's just so silly!

And yeah, neither Portuguese or Spanish need anything before an indefinite mass noun. "Je veux du gâteau" - "Quiero pastel" (first, more common meaning), "Quiero un poco de ese pastel" (second, less common meaning).

Actually, in Spanish you can also say "Quiero del pastel" for the second meaning, and I imagine you can in Portuguese too, but talk about uncommon constructions... it's usually specified further, too: "Quiero del pastel de la derecha".



Nunca me ha gustado ese término, el "partitivo", sobretodo porque en la práctica hay, en esencia, dos partitivos:
  1. "Je veux du poulet." - Quiero [algo de] pollo. <- el significado más común, el cual no es más que un sustantivo masivo indefinido marcado como tal
  2. "Je veux du poulet." - Quiero un poco de ese pollo [en particular]. <- el partitivo verdadero, es decir una parte de algo, el cual suele tener referencia definida por cierto
¡Y lo peor es que la mayoría de libros de texto para aprender francés que he visto explican la construcción con el segundo significado que es menos común, proveyendo ejercicios del primer significado! ¡Qué tontería, simplemente dicho!

Sí, ni el portugués ni el español requieren algo antes de un sustantivo masivo indefinido. "Je veux du gâteau" 'Quiero pastel' (primer significado, más común), 'Quiero un poco de ese pastel' (segundo significado, menos común).

De hecho, en español también se puede decir "Quiero del pastel" con el segundo significado, y me imagino que en portugués se puede también, pero ni hablar de construcciones raras... generalmente la gente especifica un poco más también: "Quiero del pastel de la derecha".

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-04-15, 5:57

Serafín wrote:
  1. "Je veux du poulet." - I want [some] chicken. <- the way more common meaning, which is really just an indefinite mass noun marked as such
  2. "Je veux du poulet." - I want some of that [particular] chicken. <- the true partitive, i.e. a part of something, which is usually of definite reference by the way
 (fr) Je n'ai jamais entendu parler de ce dernier sens (en français ; certes, c'est le sens prototypique du terme « partitif »). Mes manuels et mes profs enseignaient tous ce premier. En fait, j'ai de la difficulté à imaginer un scénario où l'article partitif est associé avec un nom défini (« ce poulet ») comme ça.

Je traduirais « I want some of that chicken » avec « Je veux un peu de ce poulet ».


 (en-us) I've never heard of the second meaning (in French; of course, that's the prototypical meaning of the term "partitive"). My textbooks and teachers all taught the first one. In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a context where the partitive article is linked with a definite noun ("that chicken") like that.

I would translate "I want some of that chicken" as "Je veux un peu de ce poulet".
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-04-15, 6:08

French (fr) Alors, si on sortait tous les quatre à un restaurant, il y avait un poulet sur la table et j'en voulais un peu, pourrais-je dire « je veux du poulet » ?
American English (en-US) So if all four of us went out to a restaurant, there was a chicken on the table, and I wanted a bit of it, could I say, "Je veux du poulet"?

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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-04-15, 6:23

 (fr) Peut-être, mais ce serait ambigu, comme si tu avais dit « I want some chicken » en anglais. Grâce au contexte, on comprendrait sans doute que tu parlais du poulet sur la table.

 (en-us) Maybe, but it would be ambiguous, as if you'd said, "I want some chicken" in English. We'd likely figure out through context you meant the chicken on the table.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby dEhiN » 2017-04-15, 8:09

Dormouse559 wrote:
Serafín wrote:
  1. "Je veux du poulet." - I want [some] chicken. <- the way more common meaning, which is really just an indefinite mass noun marked as such
  2. "Je veux du poulet." - I want some of that [particular] chicken. <- the true partitive, i.e. a part of something, which is usually of definite reference by the way
I've never heard of the second meaning (in French; of course, that's the prototypical meaning of the term "partitive"). My textbooks and teachers all taught the first one. In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a context where the partitive article is linked with a definite noun ("that chicken") like that.

 (fr) Peut-être c'est la raison que la terme partitive est utilisée avec la signification de la première exemple de Serafin ? Pour moi aussi, j'étais enseigner que la définition du partitif en français serais « I want some chicken » . Les mêmes textes ou professors ont utilisés aussi le mot partitif en anglais dans le même sens. Je ne suis pas sûre si les langues qui utilisent un cas partitif dans le grammaire signifient « I want some chicken » ou « I want some of that (particular) chicken » .

 (en) Maybe that's why the term partitive is used with the meaning from Serafin's first example? For me also, I was taught that the definition of partitive in French is "I want some chicken". The same texts and profs also used the word partitive in English in the same way. I'm not sure if languages which use an actual partitive grammar case mean "I want some chicken" or "I want some of that (particular) chicken".

Dormouse559 wrote:I would translate "I want some of that chicken" as "Je veux un peu de ce poulet".

 (fr)Moi aussi ; ça a plus du sens.
 (en)Me too; that makes more sense.
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Serafín » 2017-04-15, 14:52

Dormouse559 wrote: (en-us) I've never heard of the second meaning (in French; of course, that's the prototypical meaning of the term "partitive"). My textbooks and teachers all taught the first one. In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of a context where the partitive article is linked with a definite noun ("that chicken") like that.

I would translate "I want some of that chicken" as "Je veux un peu de ce poulet".

The thing is, I used to rant about this saying that people are taught that the partitive refers to an incomplete part of something, when really it could perfectly refer to multiple objects of that something. Je veux du fromage simply means 'I want cheese', and could refer to multiple blocks of cheese--the du is there because fromage is an indefinite mass noun, not because the speaker means to say they want a part of a block of cheese (instead of a complete block).
Lo que pasa es que yo solía quejarme de esto diciendo que a la gente se le enseña que el partitivo se refiere a una parte incompleta de algo, cuando en realidad bien podría referirse a múltiples objetos de algo. Je veux du fromage simplemente quiere decir 'Quiero queso', y podría referirse a múltiples pedazos o bloques de queso --el du se añade ya que fromage es un sustantivo indefinido masivo, no se añade porque el hablante quiere decir que quiere parte de un bloque de queso (en vez de un bloque completo).

But then a French native speaker, who is into linguistics by the way, pointed out that in uncommon occasions, with a definite object, the partitive does refer to an incomplete part of something. Of course, the construction is as common as the partitive in Spanish (Quiero del queso [que trajiste] 'I want some of the cheese [that you brought] ~ Je veux du poulet [que tu as apporté]'--Spanish does have a partitive), by which I mean it's not that common, but it's there. And so I changed my rant to account for this.
Sin embargo, un día hubo un hablante nativo de francés, a quien le interesaba la lingüística por cierto,
que remarcó que en ocasiones poco comunes, con un objeto definido, el partitivo sí se refiere a una parte incompleta de algo. Por supuesto la construcción es tan común como el partitivo en español ("Quiero del queso [que trajiste]" 'I want some of the cheese [that you brought] ~ Je veux du poulet [que tu as apporté]' --el español tiene un partitivo), con lo que quiero decir que no es muy común, pero que existe. Y entonces cambié mi queja para dar cuenta de esto.


Anyway, my main point is that I think textbooks, or at least grammars (which are also guilty of this), would be much more accurate if they taught the whole paradigm of the French article(s), with countability vs. gender vs. number vs. definiteness:
De todos modos, mi punto principal es que los libros de texto, o al menos las gramáticas (las cuales son también culpables de decir esto), serían mucho más precisos si enseñaran el paradigma entero del artículo en francés,
con la contabilidad vs. el género vs. el número vs. la definitud:


Code: Select all

FRENCH
--count nouns--
          DEF      INDEF
MASC.SG   le, l'   un
FEM.SG    la, l'   une
PL        les      des
--mass nouns--
       DEF      INDEF
MASC   le, l'   du, de l'
FEM    la, l'   de la, de l'

As you can see, what's marvelous about French is that every possible slot in the table is filled with something. The partitive, then, is not so much a thing of its own as it is just the indefinite article for mass nouns.
Como se puede ver aquí, lo que es maravilloso del francés es que cada celda posible de la tabla se llena con algo. El partitivo entonces no es algo distinto de por sí sino es simplemente el artículo indefinido de los sustantivos masivos.

Now contrast the above table with the one for Spanish:
Ahora procedamos a contrastar la tabla anterior con la del español:

Code: Select all

SPANISH
--count nouns--
          DEF   INDEF
MASC.SG   el    un
FEM.SG    la    una
MASC.PL   los   ---
FEM.PL    las   ---
--mass nouns--
       DEF   INDEF
MASC   el    ---
FEM    la    ---

Spanish doesn't use an article for indefinite plural count nouns (Estudio idiomas 'I study languages ~ J'étudie des langues') nor indefinite mass nouns (Tomé agua 'I drank water ~ J'ai bu de l'eau').
El español no usa un artículo ni para los sustantivos contables plurales indefinidos (Estudio idiomas 'I study languages ~ J'étudie des langues') ni para los sustantivos masivos indefinidos (Tomé agua 'I drank water ~ J'ai bu de l'eau').

For yet more comparison, here's the paradigm for English, which is very similar to that of Spanish minus the gender distinction:
Siguiendo la comparación aún más, he aquí el paradigma del inglés, el cual es muy similar al del español, excepto que no tiene distinción de género:

Code: Select all

ENGLISH
--count nouns--
     DEF   INDEF
SG   the   a, an
PL   the   ---
--mass nouns--
  DEF   INDEF
  the   ---


And then, of course, there's spoken Arabic:
Y luego, por supuesto, está el árabe hablado:

Code: Select all

EGYPTIAN ARABIC
DEF   INDEF   CONSTRUCT
el-   ---     ---


Code: Select all

MOROCCAN ARABIC
DEF   INDEF   CONSTRUCT
l-    ---     ---

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Dormouse559
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Re: Please post your message bilingually!

Postby Dormouse559 » 2017-04-16, 5:17

Serafín wrote:But then a French native speaker, who is into linguistics by the way, pointed out that in uncommon occasions, with a definite object, the partitive does refer to an incomplete part of something.
 (fr) Ben, qui suis-je pour douter d'un locuteur natif ? Ça doit être extrêmement rare, comme je l'avais dit, je n'ai jamais rencontré cet usage. The more you know, quoi. :)

Je suis d'accord avec la présentation des articles que tu as proposée. C'est très élégant. Bien qu'on m'ait toujours enseigné le sens plus commun du partitif, sa relation avec les autres articles n'a jamais été éclaircie.

 (en-us) Well, who am I to question a native speaker? It must be exceptionally rare; like I said, I've never seen that usage. The more you know. :)

I agree with the presentation of the articles you've given. It's very elegant. Even though I've always been taught the more common meaning of the partitive, it's connection with the other articles was never made clear.

dEhiN wrote: (fr) Peut-être que c'est la raison que pourquoi / pour laquelle le terme « partitif » est utilisée avec la signification du premier exemple de Serafin ? Pour moi aussi, on m'a enseigné que la définition du partitif en français serait « I want some chicken » . Les mêmes textes ou professeurs ont aussi utilisés aussi le mot « partitif » en anglais dans avec le même sens. Je ne suis pas sûre si les langues qui utilisent un cas partitif dans le grammaire grammatical signifient veulent dire « I want some chicken » ou « I want some of that (particular) chicken » .
 (fr) Enseigner est un verbe intransitif. (I teach the student. = J'enseigne à l'étudiant.). Contrairement à l'anglais, il n'est pas possible en français de mettre un verbe intransitif au passif, alors on se sert d'une construction avec "on". (The student is taught. = On enseigne à l'étudiant.)

 (en-us) Enseigner is an intransitive verb. (I teach the student. = J'enseigne à l'étudiant.) Unlike in English, in French you can't passivize an intransitive verb, so you use an "on" construction. (The student is taught. = On enseigne à l'étudiant.)
N'hésite pas à corriger mes erreurs.


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