Italian vs. the rest of the world [split]

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Italian vs. the rest of the world [split]

Postby obler9 » 2008-12-23, 18:40

Italian is the only language suitable with music.
But other languages can be good to accompany noises.
So I also listen to pieces sang in English, German and Norwegian.
Just God save me from French. But also from Russian, Japanese and the other radically smart usual exotic stupid tricks.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby Kasuya » 2008-12-23, 20:22

obler9 wrote:Italian is the only language suitable with music.


Explain.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby Cassielle » 2008-12-24, 10:45

obler9 wrote:Italian is the only language suitable with music.
But other languages can be good to accompany noises.
So I also listen to pieces sang in English, German and Norwegian.
Just God save me from French. But also from Russian, Japanese and the other radically smart usual exotic stupid tricks.



Is this just really poorly chosen wording, or a *really* ignorant and rude post?
And so, may Evil beware and may Good dress warmly and eat plenty of fresh vegetables.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby obler9 » 2008-12-24, 12:56

Cassielle wrote:
obler9 wrote:Italian is the only language suitable with music.
But other languages can be good to accompany noises.
So I also listen to pieces sang in English, German and Norwegian.
Just God save me from French. But also from Russian, Japanese and the other radically smart usual exotic stupid tricks.



Is this just really poorly chosen wording, or a *really* ignorant and rude post?


If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian, there is a reason.
If italian is the language of music ("concerto", "allegro", "andante", etc.) also there's a reason.
You can be fascinated by the peculiar structure of a given language such as Japanese or the east slavic ones or hungarian, etc. (me too), but music is made up of sounds, and the most beautiful, musical and rythmic language is Italian.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

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RANT

Postby Boes » 2008-12-24, 13:44

Cassielle wrote:
obler9 wrote:Italian is the only language suitable with music.
But other languages can be good to accompany noises.
So I also listen to pieces sang in English, German and Norwegian.
Just God save me from French. But also from Russian, Japanese and the other radically smart usual exotic stupid tricks.

Is this just really poorly chosen wording, or a *really* ignorant and rude post?

Both I would say ... :lol:

obler9 wrote:If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian, there is a reason.
If italian is the language of music ("concerto", "allegro", "andante", etc.) also there's a reason.
You can be fascinated by the peculiar structure of a given language such as Japanese or the east slavic ones or hungarian, etc. (me too), but music is made up of sounds, and the most beautiful, musical and rythmic language is Italian.

Mozart, who you apparently know only by name or else you would have known this, wrote many Opera's in German as well. In fact, it was Mozart who firmly established German opera. Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever? I'll wont spoil the storyline for you, but I can tell you this; it's not in Italian.

It is incredibly rude, and frankly, incredibly stupid, to claim that Italian is the only language 'worthy' to be sung, and to discredit other languages while doing so.

Opera doesn't equal music (thank god), and (despite what all those travel brochures say) neither does Italian. (Those brochures probably go on and on about the melodiousness of Italian to avoid writing about real things, like the tons of garbage littering Italian streets. :wink: )

If Italian truly was the only language suited for singing, then why does the majority of the world still keep fooling around with all other languages? Why would they do that, because they're all incredibly stubborn? No, it's because tastes differ.

Come to think of it, when you look at the recent history of global or European music there's not really that much Italian. Let alone innovative music coming from Italy. Ever heard of Fats Domino? Louis Armstrong? The Beatles? The Rolling Stones? The Beach boys? Julio Iglesias? Kraftwerk? Tiesto? Neither of them sang in Italian.

The only recent (1996) song (not even a hit) I can remember is Con te partirò, by that blind fellow. Which, if I recall correctly didn't even become known outside Italy until it was partly sung in English and became known as 'Time to say goodbye'.

In line with that: Goodbye, and have a nice Christmas. Oh, and if you're planning on having a truly Italian Christmas, be sure to remove that Bing Crosby CD from the CD player.

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Re: RANT

Postby obler9 » 2008-12-26, 5:56

Boes wrote:
obler9 wrote:If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian, there is a reason.
If italian is the language of music ("concerto", "allegro", "andante", etc.) also there's a reason.
You can be fascinated by the peculiar structure of a given language such as Japanese or the east slavic ones or hungarian, etc. (me too), but music is made up of sounds, and the most beautiful, musical and rythmic language is Italian.

Mozart, who you apparently know only by name or else you would have known this, wrote many Opera's in German as well. In fact, it was Mozart who firmly established German opera. Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever? I'll wont spoil the storyline for you, but I can tell you this; it's not in Italian.


I am astonished by your musical "culture". Me, you know, the one that takes the metro and in 20 minutes is at the Scala Theatre while maybe you go to a good dutch coffee shop in 20 mins-
Actually you have to start reading better what I wrote: If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian there is a reason
Ins't true or not he wanted his operas to be sung most in Italian? Isn't true or not there are several written testimonies about his love for the Italian language over the others and on his love for the Opera over the other genders? It's Mozart who stated Opera to me comes before everything else
Right now I remember a letter about an Opera he felt the vital need to write, and he intended it to be written "in French rather than German, but in Italian rather than both, German and French..."
Who does care (talking about the most suitable language with music) a few of German Singspiele (remember this term) he wrote?
Boes wrote:it was Mozart who firmly established German opera

What kind of opera did he "firmly establish"? Die Entführung aus dem Serail or Die Zauberflöte are in fact Singspiele, and this german gender (nothing special) existed before him and it was rather common..

Now, what's the peculiarity of the German Singspiel? It is characterized by the spoken dialogues.. It was perceived as a gender suitable with german exactly because the German language is not musical at all and the spoken recitative (non-sung) parts helped the lack of musicality of German.

Boes wrote:Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever?

Maybe for a Troll. The "most iconic operas ever" written by Mozart are in fact Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni and Così fan tutte

Boes wrote:It is incredibly rude, and frankly, incredibly stupid, to claim that Italian is the only language 'worthy' to be sung, and to discredit other languages while doing so.

When I state Italian is the only language suitable with music, well... let's say it's true. The part regarding me discrediting other languages intended to be sarcastic towards some ridicolous middle-class passion for the exotic: the style I used to write it could help you to understand it, but maybe your intellectual sensibility is not evolved enough, as I can see by your way of talking and the fanciful issues that you're adding to this conversation, though they are completely irrelated with the topic you should consider here:

Boes wrote:Opera doesn't equal music (thank god), and (despite what all those travel brochures say) neither does Italian. (Those brochures probably go on and on about the melodiousness of Italian to avoid writing about real things, like the tons of garbage littering Italian streets. :wink: ) .


A note for an Ignorant Troll brainwashed by some American B-movie: Napoli is an Italian city and not the whole Italy; and it is in some neapolitan areas that 2 years ago started a problem with the draing of the garbage, that is going to be solved now. The guilty is not of the neapolitans but of the camorra and some criminal northern italian entrepreneurs. What happened in Napoli two years ago doesn't change the musicality of Italian and the fact that in Italy the reader of the travel brochures comes to see the country that got over the half of the artistic patrimony of the whole world plus the largest number of sites declared by Unesco universal heritage. A country climatically perfect with a very very long coastline in a sea (the Mediterranean one) in which you can have a real bath (differently from your sea where only the Yeti can have a bath). A country inhabited by a people that created what we call "western civilization" and that speak the most beautifull language of the world and that, as you show, still today causes the irrepresible envy of the barbarian trolls who are not even able to articulate a true human language.
I could talk about the fact that people who go to the Netherlands go there not because of the not very special Netherlands themselves but just because of the free drugs and pronstitution. I could tell you that the Travel Brochures talking about the Netherlands do not treat something very problematic for the Dutch, such as the incredible ammount of rats that invade your streets or the bad dutch habit about the personal hygiene, since it is a miracle to see a Dutch having a shower, and what about that group of potaito-heads that founded the Dutch Pedophile Party (absolutely legal, in your country)? About the big problem you have with the diffusion of AIDS, in your country? I could say that if I delete Holland from the European history this would not change at all...

But, hey, we are talking about languages suitable with music!


Are you Dutch, and you dare to talk about Italian?
This is very strange...

As an old Dutch saying goes,

"The Dutch language is not a language but a throatache!". :lol:

By the way.....
I discover now that the Dutch travel brochures talk a lot about the superiority of the Italian language as regards its melodiousness. I am agree with these Dutch travel brochures on Italy, then.
But the fact that in some way Italy and Italian equal music has been said by HISTORY. Maybe because the musical notation was created by an Italian, as well as instruments such as the violin or the piano and because Italy produced the most relevant music from the Madrigale to the Opera. And this seems to be confirmed by the fact that Italian is the universal language of music... But I'm convinced that you have never heard terms such as intermezzo, soprano, contralto, opera, concerto, aria, cantata, allegro, vivace, andante, forte, fortissimo, solfeggio, piano, etc......

You talk about "travel brochures" but for centuries a lot of european intellectuals argued on the superiority of the Italian language in music (and not only in music).
The ones I'm going to quote (just the first ones I've found) did never write any dutch travel brochure:

It remains for us to consider wheter the beauties of Italian vocal music can be transferred to the French language. Foreigners deny it, but we may challange their ability to judge; several Frenchmen doubt it, and we must admit to them at least that the Italian language will always be infinitely more suited to singing than ours (Jean le Rond d'Alembert, "On the Freedom of Music")

They imagined that they could experience time and again how easily and with what flexibility and gentleness the harmony, prosody, ellipses, and inversions of the Italian language lent themselves to art, movement, expression, turns of melody, and the measured value of sounds, and that they would continue to ignore how much their own is stiff, heavy, weighty, pedantic, and dreary (Denis Diderot, "Rameau's Nephew")

Of all modern languages cultivated by men of letters Italian is the most versatile, the most flexible; the most pliable to the shapes one wants to impose on it. It is therefore as rich in good translations as it is in excellent vocal music, which is itself an other form of translation. Our language, on the other hand, is the strictest of all in its laws, the most uniform in its construnction, and the most inhibited in its flow (Jean le Rond d'Alembert, "Remarks on the Art of Translating")

Here we have a certain German figure that is not unkown to the ones who studied some German literature...

Among the modern languages of Europe, the Italian is certainly the best adapted for expressing all the varied sentiments and passions of the Greek Homer. It possesses not indeed the Homeric measure, but in truth nothing worthy of the name of hexameter verse can possibly exist in any modern language, for the whole system of modern versification is founded upon principles with which those of ancient versification have no connection. Nevertheless the sound of the Italian language may certainly boast of a harmony which has no need of dactyls and spondees; and, in its grammatical construction, it is capable of all the flexibility of the Greek. In the blank verse of Italy, where the impediment of rhyme is absent, the flow of thought may be as free as in prose, and preserves at the same time all the grace and majesty of poetical measure (M.me de Stael, "On the Usefulness of Translation")

And so on with many others till the contemporary musicologists:

The magnificent sonority of the Italian language, its pliable and easily pronounced constellation of vowels and consonants that never form harsh and grating clusters, was born for music (Paul Henry Lang, "George Frideric Handel")


Boes wrote:The only recent (1996) song (not even a hit) I can remember is Con te partirò, by that blind fellow. Which, if I recall correctly didn't even become known outside Italy until it was partly sung in English and became known as 'Time to say goodbye'.


Well... I don't pretend too much from you, don't worry. The "blind fellow" also is known for some other very famous pieces that are sung also with different languages accompaigning the core of the song that remains always Italian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdEshWrMLuk

Besides him there are several present non-italian singers that have used the Italian language for some very special song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7mPbdw ... re=related

Or for their foundamental lyrics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9a66c7HWNk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM_pAzJqz4g

And also there are always Italian and non-Italian singers whose interpretation of classics (in Italian language) still conquers a large part of the world taste, now as well as in past:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WvYa1rH2ns&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7P-INo2 ... re=related

And if we want to talk about pop also there are Italian singers very well known in several parts of the world, east europe, south america, etc., where their songs have been a "hit" for a long time.
I can't put and mention everything about Italian and music today and in past because it would take the whole forum.
Last edited by obler9 on 2008-12-26, 6:45, edited 1 time in total.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby hashi » 2008-12-26, 6:24

Urgh...

Mikael wrote:That post just screamed, "I'm obnoxious! Go Italian!!11!1" Or maybe it's just me.

I can't help but agree. Music choice is exactly that, a CHOICE which means it is down to opinion. Frankly I think sweden makes some of the best music I've heard :whistle:

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby Cassielle » 2008-12-26, 7:48

I still don't know if I should be annoyed or not, because now I'm convinced he's jsut a troll, and can't take him seriously.
And so, may Evil beware and may Good dress warmly and eat plenty of fresh vegetables.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby hashi » 2008-12-26, 8:06

Cassielle wrote:I still don't know if I should be annoyed or not, because now I'm convinced he's jsut a troll, and can't take him seriously.


A very patriotic troll :roll:
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Re: Languages in Music

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2008-12-26, 8:12

Oh my goooooooooooooooood, why is this elitist asshole not banned yet? :hmm:
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Re: Languages in Music

Postby Kasuya » 2008-12-26, 8:27

sjheiss wrote:Oh my goooooooooooooooood, why is this elitist asshole not banned yet? :hmm:


So the admins should start banning everyone with some radical views? If you think he's a nut case just don't read his posts. He's not really disturbing anyone.

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Re: RANT

Postby Varislintu » 2008-12-26, 9:19

obler9 wrote:A country climatically perfect with a very very long coastline in a sea (the Mediterranean one) in which you can have a real bath (differently from your sea where only the Yeti can have a bath). A country inhabited by a people that created what we call "western civilization" and that speak the most beautifull language of the world and that, as you show, still today causes the irrepresible envy of the barbarian trolls who are not even able to articulate a true human language.


:lol:

In my barbaric tongue we have this saying 'Omakehu haisee': "There is a stench of self-praising here" ;).

I wonder if obler is an Italy-hating troll whose aim is to alienate people from all things Italian? That's the only effect of this kind of talk, anyway.

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Re: RANT

Postby darkina » 2008-12-26, 10:26

Hmm... you know what is sad, that Italians that have not travelled can really be like that. While travelling made me eventually feel more patriotic, the use of stereotypes such as Dutch=free drugs is pretty pathetic. (That said, I am personally not excited about the Dutch language and all, but oh well.)

There is a belief that English is more suitable for stuff such as rock music. Which is a bit sad because obviously it depends on the market, that made music in English so popular everywhere. English has shorther words and is sharper and often needs less words than Italian to express something. So it can be easier to sing in English. But I do love to scream to some rock music in Italian and to appreciate some clever wording...

I do refer only to rock/pop/modern music, I don't do classic or opera. I think opera sounds terribly bad. And it can hardly be said to be Italian anyway, I don't understand a single word...

Just a bit of an information though:

Boes wrote:
Come to think of it, when you look at the recent history of global or European music there's not really that much Italian. Let alone innovative music coming from Italy. Ever heard of Fats Domino? Louis Armstrong? The Beatles? The Rolling Stones? The Beach boys? Julio Iglesias? Kraftwerk? Tiesto? Neither of them sang in Italian.

The only recent (1996) song (not even a hit) I can remember is Con te partirò, by that blind fellow. Which, if I recall correctly didn't even become known outside Italy until it was partly sung in English and became known as 'Time to say goodbye'.


Talking about innovative music coming from a place to influence the world is not a very precise thing to do, because it fully depends on the market, and the Italian one is underdeveloped enough to let innovative stuff remain in the underground even within the country itself. So that people will keep on being brainwashed with the like of Eros Ramazzotti or Laura Pausini (of which you might have heard about, she is especially huge in Spanish-speaking countries plus Brazil). So your argument is a bit flawed because there are internationally big Italian artists with their own market (I have seen a video by Tiziano Ferro in Ukraine :lol:), although they don't really fit my own definition of good music. And the fact that the cool ones are barely known by the mainstream Italian depends a lot on the market and not on the language.
(and personally I have never heard of Fats Domino or Tiesto ;))
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Re: RANT

Postby Boes » 2008-12-26, 10:46

obler9 wrote:
Boes wrote:
obler9 wrote:If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian, there is a reason.
If italian is the language of music ("concerto", "allegro", "andante", etc.) also there's a reason.
You can be fascinated by the peculiar structure of a given language such as Japanese or the east slavic ones or hungarian, etc. (me too), but music is made up of sounds, and the most beautiful, musical and rythmic language is Italian.

Mozart, who you apparently know only by name or else you would have known this, wrote many Opera's in German as well. In fact, it was Mozart who firmly established German opera. Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever? I'll wont spoil the storyline for you, but I can tell you this; it's not in Italian.


I am astonished by your musical "culture". Me, you know, the one that takes the metro and in 20 minutes is at the Scala Theatre while maybe you go to a good dutch coffee shop in 20 mins-

Well, while it might take you only 20 minutes to get to a theater, but somehow I get the impression you're the kind of person who'd rather spend 6 hours getting to a Dutch coffee shop.

obler9 wrote:Actually you have to start reading better what I wrote: If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian there is a reason
Ins't true or not he wanted his operas to be sung most in Italian?

No, that's indeed not true. A look at a list of his opera's will further make that clear.
obler9 wrote:Isn't true or not there are several written testimonies about his love for the Italian language over the others and on his love for the Opera over the other genders? It's Mozart who stated Opera to me comes before everything else

There is correspondence in which it becomes clear he likes Italian. I've yet to seen one of his letters saying that he liked Italian above everything else.

obler9 wrote:Right now I remember a letter about an Opera he felt the vital need to write, and he intended it to be written "in French rather than German, but in Italian rather than both, German and French..."

Well, that's very convenient of you. I however, find it totally unbelievable. Especially given the opera's he actually wrote. So either he did wrote this, and fully changed his view later in life, or you're just making this up. I trust I don't have to explicitly mention my point of view on this matter.

obler9 wrote:Who does care (talking about the most suitable language with music) a few of German Singspiele (remember this term) he wrote?
Boes wrote:it was Mozart who firmly established German opera

What kind of opera did he "firmly establish"? Die Entführung aus dem Serail or Die Zauberflöte are in fact Singspiele, and this german gender (nothing special) existed before him and it was rather common..

If you'd thoroughly read the Wikipedia page on which you've just 'based' your rantings, you would have read that Singspiele are in fact an early form of opera-like theater. Mozart did not make them. Ever.


obler9 wrote:Now, what's the peculiarity of the German Singspiel? It is characterized by the spoken dialogues.. It was perceived as a gender suitable with german exactly because the German language is not musical at all and the spoken recitative (non-sung) parts helped the lack of musicality of German.

Once again, when you read Wikipedia read it properly. Had you done this, you would have seen that a Singspiel is a play in which separate spoken dialog and separate songs are used.

obler9 wrote:
Boes wrote:Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever?

Maybe for a Troll. The "most iconic operas ever" written by Mozart are in fact Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni and Così fan tutte

Prove it. Just prove it. Suddenly remember any useful 'quotations' again?

obler9 wrote:
Boes wrote:It is incredibly rude, and frankly, incredibly stupid, to claim that Italian is the only language 'worthy' to be sung, and to discredit other languages while doing so.

When I state Italian is the only language suitable with music, well... let's say it's true.

You know what? Let's not. But I don't want to burst your bubble, so you can go on saying it. Just don't expect to be taking seriously (the one thing you desire most).

obler9 wrote:The part regarding me discrediting other languages intended to be sarcastic towards some ridicolous middle-class passion for the exotic: the style I used to write it could help you to understand it, but maybe your intellectual sensibility is not evolved enough, as I can see by your way of talking and the fanciful issues that you're adding to this conversation, though they are completely irrelated with the topic you should consider here:

No, I'm afraid it's not my 'intellectual sensibility' that's the problem here. It might be your fake-elitists attitude, incredible chauvinism, ridiculous statements, or maybe (just maybe) your rather mediocre mastering of the English language.

obler9 wrote:
Boes wrote:Opera doesn't equal music (thank god), and (despite what all those travel brochures say) neither does Italian. (Those brochures probably go on and on about the melodiousness of Italian to avoid writing about real things, like the tons of garbage littering Italian streets. :wink: ) .

A note for an Ignorant Troll brainwashed by some American B-movie: Napoli is an Italian city and not the whole Italy; and it is in some neapolitan areas that 2 years ago started a problem with the draing of the garbage, that is going to be solved now. The guilty is not of the neapolitans but of the camorra and some criminal northern italian entrepreneurs.

It almost seems as if you know the meaning of the word 'exaggeration'.

But do go on about this Cammora and criminal entrepreneurs ... we don't have them where I live. Are they the creme de la creme of Italian opera?

obler9 wrote:What happened in Napoli two years ago doesn't change the musicality of Italian and the fact that in Italy the reader of the travel brochures comes to see the country that got over the half of the artistic patrimony of the whole world plus the largest number of sites declared by Unesco universal heritage.

So the trash of Naples doesn't have an effect on the language ... but artistic patrimony and UNESCO sites somehow do?

obler9 wrote:A country climatically perfect with a very very long coastline in a sea (the Mediterranean one) in which you can have a real bath (differently from your sea where only the Yeti can have a bath).

Or only a real man. That's a cultural rift between us I guess.

obler9 wrote:A country inhabited by a people that created what we call "western civilization"
and that speak the most beautifull language of the world and that, as you show, still today causes the irrepresible envy of the barbarian trolls who are not even able to articulate a true human language.

Hmm, how exactly did you come to interpret my comments as envy?

Oh, as for 'creating' Western civilization ... get a book on the Roman Empire, read the first 10 pages, close the book, come back to this forum, log in, and apologize to the Greeks.

obler9 wrote:I could talk about the fact that people who go to the Netherlands go there not because of the not very special Netherlands themselves but just because of the free drugs and pronstitution.

You could. You would make an even bigger ass of yourself, but yeah, you could.

obler9 wrote:Are you Dutch, and you dare to talk about Italian?
This is very strange...

Well it's not like I'm ever going to meet a Italian with the muscular package to stop me from doing it, so why not?

obler9 wrote:As an old Dutch saying goes,

"The Dutch language is not a language but a throatache!". :lol:


Actually that's something someone else said about Dutch. We laugh about it. You see, the Dutch are a people who are familiar with the term 'relativism'. It holds us from making complete fools of ourselves. For example by making ridiculous claims on an online forum.

obler9 wrote:
You talk about "travel brochures" but for centuries a lot of european intellectuals argued on the superiority of the Italian language in music (and not only in music).

And 'European' is Italian for [...] ?

obler9 wrote:I can't put and mention everything about Italian and music today and in past because it would take the whole forum.

Oh don't go through all that effort Obler9, I would never read/view it anyway. Just like I didn't even look at the links and texts above. It's boxing day, I'm going out to have some fun today!


PS: Obler9, please continue to post here! I find you terribly amusing! :D
Last edited by Boes on 2008-12-26, 11:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RANT

Postby Boes » 2008-12-26, 10:53

darkina wrote:
Boes wrote:
Come to think of it, when you look at the recent history of global or European music there's not really that much Italian. Let alone innovative music coming from Italy. Ever heard of Fats Domino? Louis Armstrong? The Beatles? The Rolling Stones? The Beach boys? Julio Iglesias? Kraftwerk? Tiesto? Neither of them sang in Italian.

The only recent (1996) song (not even a hit) I can remember is Con te partirò, by that blind fellow. Which, if I recall correctly didn't even become known outside Italy until it was partly sung in English and became known as 'Time to say goodbye'.


Talking about innovative music coming from a place to influence the world is not a very precise thing to do, because it fully depends on the market, and the Italian one is underdeveloped enough to let innovative stuff remain in the underground even within the country itself.


That may be, and I believe you when you say it it the case, but that still doesn't change the fact that Italian had little influence on the music of the 20th century. :wink:

darkina wrote:(and personally I have never heard of Fats Domino or Tiesto ;))

Fats Domino is an iconic Rhythm and blues/Rock 'n Roll artist of the 20th century. Tiesto is a (Dutch) DJ, who's won the 'Worlds best DJ award' 3 consecutive times. You might not know their names, you'll probably definitely recognize their songs. :wink:
Last edited by Boes on 2008-12-26, 11:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Languages in Music

Postby hashi » 2008-12-26, 11:02

Boes wrote:Oh, as for 'creating' Western civilization ... get a book on the Roman Empire, read the first 10 pages, close the book, come back to this forum, log in, and apologize to the Greeks.


Lol :whistle:
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Sono ancora qui (a volte), ma probabilmente non ti voglio parlare.

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Re: RANT

Postby darkina » 2008-12-26, 11:29

Boes wrote:But do go on about this Cammora and criminal entrepreneurs ... we don't have them where I live. Are they the creme de la creme of Italian opera?

obler9 wrote:What happened in Napoli two years ago doesn't change the musicality of Italian and the fact that in Italy the reader of the travel brochures comes to see the country that got over the half of the artistic patrimony of the whole world plus the largest number of sites declared by Unesco universal heritage.

So the trash of Naples doesn't have an effect on the language ... but artistic patrimony and UNESCO sites somehow do?


This is what makes me sad about Italy (among other things but not as many as a few years ago ;)): just because we have "slight" problems with criminal organisations and not only, they become easy points for discussions... I'm sure you wouldn't use Al Qaeda in an argument with a Muslim, so why use our sad sad bits in an argument about language and culture... I know it's sadly part of our culture and I do understand the context of this discussion, but it is not nice to come from a ridicolous country and have its ridicolousness pointed out every time someone needs a strong argument...
век живи, век учись, а дураком помрешь

Pleasures remain, so does the pain

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Re: RANT

Postby Boes » 2008-12-26, 11:40

darkina wrote:I'm sure you wouldn't use Al Qaeda in an argument with a Muslim, so why use our sad sad bits in an argument about language and culture...

Because if you continuously and conscientiously leave out all the bad, then there is a chance that one day you end up believing your own fairytale. Which I fear is what happened to Obler9.

The world isn't all white, and sometimes some people need to see a load of black before they can see it's grey again.

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Re: RANT

Postby TaylorS » 2008-12-26, 20:44

obler9 wrote:
Boes wrote:
obler9 wrote:If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian, there is a reason.
If italian is the language of music ("concerto", "allegro", "andante", etc.) also there's a reason.
You can be fascinated by the peculiar structure of a given language such as Japanese or the east slavic ones or hungarian, etc. (me too), but music is made up of sounds, and the most beautiful, musical and rythmic language is Italian.

Mozart, who you apparently know only by name or else you would have known this, wrote many Opera's in German as well. In fact, it was Mozart who firmly established German opera. Perhaps you've heard about 'The Magic Flute', arguably one of the most iconic opera's ever? I'll wont spoil the storyline for you, but I can tell you this; it's not in Italian.


I am astonished by your musical "culture". Me, you know, the one that takes the metro and in 20 minutes is at the Scala Theatre while maybe you go to a good dutch coffee shop in 20 mins-
Actually you have to start reading better what I wrote: If Mozart wanted his pieces and operas to be sung most in Italian there is a reason
Ins't true or not he wanted his operas to be sung most in Italian? Isn't true or not there are several written testimonies about his love for the Italian language over the others and on his love for the Opera over the other genders? It's Mozart who stated Opera to me comes before everything else
Right now I remember a letter about an Opera he felt the vital need to write, and he intended it to be written "in French rather than German, but in Italian rather than both, German and French..."
Who does care (talking about the most suitable language with music) a few of German Singspiele (remember this term) he wrote?
Boes wrote:it was Mozart who firmly established German opera

What kind of opera did he "firmly establish"? Die Entführung aus dem Serail or Die Zauberflöte are in fact Singspiele, and this german gender (nothing special) existed before him and it was rather common..


LOL, I've not seen so much sucking up to Italian in my f***ing life. :roll: Sorry to burst your bubble, but Italian is so over-rated as a result of the rantings of snobs it's pathetic.
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Re: RANT

Postby obler9 » 2008-12-27, 2:43

Varislintu wrote:
obler9 wrote:A country climatically perfect with a very very long coastline in a sea (the Mediterranean one) in which you can have a real bath (differently from your sea where only the Yeti can have a bath). A country inhabited by a people that created what we call "western civilization" and that speak the most beautifull language of the world and that, as you show, still today causes the irrepresible envy of the barbarian trolls who are not even able to articulate a true human language.


:lol:

In my barbaric tongue we have this saying 'Omakehu haisee': "There is a stench of self-praising here" ;).


Finnish doesn't sound barbaric at all. From a phonetical point of view, It's one of the most beautiful languages. And this is an objective fact, because the beauty of a language is like the beauty of a woman: an objective datum. Finland is a light in the anthropophagous North. And I love the Finnish and their language.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

Le parole sono importanti!


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